Talking to Kids About War and Peace
HOST: [00:00:00] When the world feels frightening, what do children need most from the adults who love them? Today on Peace Talks Radio, two experts on child development and peace education share practical ways to help young people navigate war and imagine a more peaceful future.
Dr. Marsha Richardson: The way you talk to a six-year-old about what they might see on TV about a war is qualitatively different than how you would talk to a teenager, and it's simply because children process information quite differently depending upon their age.
Dilara Ozel: I realize that the problem is they don't recognize each other. So if you don't know someone, how can you live peacefully with them?
HOST: That's coming up on Peace Talks Radio.
This is Peace Talks Radio, the radio series and podcast on peacemaking and nonviolent conflict resolution I'm Jessica Ticktin today with correspondent anna van [00:01:00] dine As conflicts unfold around the world, how do we talk to our children about what's happening? How do we educate them about war and help them foster peace?
Marsha Richardson is a clinical psychologist by training, and an expert in child and adolescent development. She has a wealth of experience working with young people and developing school-based mental health programs. She directs the School and Mental Health Counseling program at the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education.Later in today's program, we'll travel to Turkey to meet counselor and peace education researcher, Dilara Ozel, whose work explores how children from different backgrounds can learn to understand one another and build the skills of peace. But first, here's Anna Van Dine's interview with Dr. Marsha Richardson.
Anna Van Dine: War and conflict are things that are politically complex and can be really emotionally charged for people. But why, in broad strokes, is it still important to talk about these [00:02:00] subjects with young people, with kids?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Talking with children about war, about conflicts, about the things that they're listening to and hearing on the news, or watching on TV, is, it's critically important for caregivers, parents, even educators.
So for example, the way you talk to a six-year-old about what they might see on TV about a war is qualitatively different than how you would talk to a teenager, and it's simply because children process information quite differently depending upon their age. And so the same explanation, or the same discourse around these topics may not be understood or processed the same way.
Anna Van Dine: It sounds like kind of what you're saying is that kids of all ages might be hearing about stuff or be exposed to stuff, and what they might be picking up on might not be framed in a way that it's developmentally appropriate or comprehensible to them where they're [00:03:00] at. So it's important for the adults in their lives to actually make that something that they can access, those, those ideas.
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Exactly. Yeah.
Anna Van Dine: Like we were just saying, whether or not anyone tells them, kids do hear about war, like, on the news or from other kids at school. What are the ways that can affect them? Does that show up in their behavior? K- how might that look at home or at school?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Yeah. It really depends. The child might be someone who has a family member in the military who's not at home, whether mom, dad, brother, sister, close neighbor or friend.
And so the absence of that loved one in their life on a daily basis and not knowing where they are, not understanding why they're away, again, developmentally, is something that needs to be processed. If there is- Excessive worry about their well-being and safety. If they're hearing that the US is bombing someplace or that there's a skirmish somewhere, there might [00:04:00] be this heightened worry and anxiety about their well-being, about their health.
A child could shut down and totally not think about it or talk about it at all, or they, on the opposite extreme, they could excessively worry about it and constantly ask questions. They might not eat, they might have poor sleep patterns. They might start acting out in school. So yeah, there's a broad range of reactions that could happen.
I always say that caregivers and parents are the true experts of their children. If they notice any kind of changes, behaviorally, emotionally, what they're talking about, things like that, those are signals to step in and intervene in some way
Anna Van Dine: You just mentioned parents and caregivers, and if one of those people does notice a change in behavior in a child or a, a young person, or if their kid comes to them with a question, they're like, "What's going on in this region of the world?What am I hearing about?" [00:05:00] Before that conversation happens, if possible, is there anything that the adult should do to prepare?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: I think that adults should be very mindful that they are role models and that children are looking at them for guidance. They should also be aware of what their own thoughts and feelings are about the situation and how that comes across in how they respond to children, because at, at certain age, kids are absorbing what their caregiver, what their parent is saying, what their teachers are saying, and they integrate that into their knowledge and their behavior about certain things.
And then, again, from a developmental perspective, as they get older, they start to challenge those values and beliefs. And so they might grow up to thinking one way because that’s what they've been exposed to by their parents and caregivers, but as they get older, they start to think for themselves and start to [00:06:00] challenge and question what they've heard, what they've learned, and that's developmentally appropriate as they develop their own mindset and perspective.
So for parents, be aware of the influence and the power of your words and behavior, first and foremost. Start by asking the child what do they already know. Kids might hear fragments of information from friends, social media, school, television, and so forth. So assess what exactly do they know, and I would say with that information, provide an honest but age-appropriate response or information.
The younger the children are, I would definitely avoid graphic details and things like that. Definitely correct any kind of misinformation. It's interesting how the news is being reported, especially nowadays, and so a task for an adult is to help young people to be critical thinkers of the information that they're receiving.[00:07:00]
It's like, not everything you read, not everything on TV, not everything you research on your phones is accurate information. So look at the facts and look at counterarguments and help them come up with their own perspective.
Anna Van Dine: Yeah. I wanna go a bit deeper into this. Like, how do you tailor information about such a complicated and fraught thing like war to different ages and different developmental stages?I wonder if you could give some examples about how you might approach this topic with different age groups, like kindergartners versus sixth graders. What would those conversations look like?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: So, this is my child development course here. So, think about three to five-year-olds. How do they think? How do they view the world?
They think very concretely, very literally. They struggle with framing of time and complex causes and effects, and [00:08:00] things like that. They might believe things are happening or something happened to someone because of what they did. So, they might take this weird kind of ownership of thinking, "Oh, this is happening because of something I did or something I said."
And they, again, they look to the adults for emotional information. How do I respond to this emotionally? So, recommendation, use really simple language, along the lines of, "Sometimes groups of people disagree about things, and when they can't talk it out, when they can't come to an agreement, they might start to, to fight each other.
And in some places, those fights become really serious, and people can get hurt, and many adults are trying to figure out how to keep everyone safe." Real simple, to the point, no graphic details. Reassure the child, reassure them about their own safety, because that's oftentimes the, in the forefront of their mind, and [00:09:00] give them opportunities to express their thoughts.
A lot of times, kids at that age act out what they're feeling through play, through storytelling, through drawing. The non-verbal kind of means of expression is oftentimes the way to go.
Anna Van Dine: And what about the older group, the sixth graders?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: So, for kids, let's see, six to 12 years old, what are some of the developmental characteristics?
They can understand cause and effect. They are interested in fairness, and rules, and justice, and so forth, and norms. They- Probably will still continue about their own personal safety and the safety of loved ones. So one way to respond to their inquiry or concerns, you could talk about countries oftentimes are in conflict, in disagreement around land and resources and beliefs and power.
And so when peaceful ways of navigating those [00:10:00] differences don't work, fighting and war can come about. And so leaders and organizations and governments are trying to first and foremost try to talk it out, and that's an ongoing process. Again, something simple, sweet, to the point. And give them the space to ask questions.
Again, also talk about ways in which to separate fact from fiction. Everything that they see on TV is not necessarily accurate information, and just remind them of that. And also ask them to make the connection between what they're seeing and hearing to how they're feeling. How are they feeling about themselves?
How are they feeling about the world? How are they feeling about being a US citizen or being whatever the identity is in this space?
Anna Van Dine: With these younger kids, are there any rules of thumb you have that help to walk the line between oversimplifying versus overexplaining? It feels like those are the two [00:11:00] potential missteps there.
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Yeah. I would suggest not getting stuck in the weeds. It is a fine line, and each child is different as far as how they interpret the world. So it really depends upon their level of maturity. Some Welcome and embrace the simplicity of it, and some... I have two boys, and some of the very interesting things that we've talked about around conflict and politics at, when they were 11, 12, 13 years old is, "Oh my gosh, I don't ever remember saying anything or talking like this with my parents," kind of thing.
So yeah, it really depends. And then for early adolescents, this is the stage where they're really getting into abstract thinking. There's a real strong interest and focus on justice and morality, so they're more able to think outside of themselves. They have a, an increased awareness about what's happening around the world, what's happening in their community, and this is where they might, you might start to see really strong [00:12:00] expressions of emotions around these kinds of issues.
And so the kind of language and communication can center around multiple perspectives, so I call it dialectical thinking. It's not either/or, it's both/and. It's like both sides have equal concerns and worries and fears and trying to navigate it all. So it's like thinking from that perspective, having these open, honest discussions, and giving them space to express their opinions, and help them evaluate the information that they are processing from the news and social media is really important.
So focusing on critical thinking. This is a great opportunity to reinforce media literacy, to critically examine what inform- how you're being fed information, and come up with some constructive ways of how to respond to it, respond to others who might challenge their differences of opinions about certain [00:13:00] things.
Anna Van Dine: For this age group, the adolescent age group, who is accessing stuff on social media, in school, hearing stuff from peers in a more advanced way, are there things that grownups can do to help ensure that they're getting accurate, nuanced, age-appropriate information?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: I think modeling, modeling research. They could be researchers of information.
Understand the historical significance. Understand the history that is the foundation of what is happening today. So going on Google Scholar or whatever the appropriate search engine is to explore, like, both/and, the conflicting sides, their perspectives as to how they got here today, I think is really good example of encouraging not to take the first bite of information that they received as, "This is it."They could [00:14:00] go through together
HOST: Next, we turn to Dilara Ozel. She earned her PhD in guidance and psychological counseling from Middle East Technical University, where she adapted a UNESCO peace education program for fourth grade students in refugee-receiving schools in Turkey. She now works as a counselor in private practice in Ankara.
HOST: Anna Van Dine spoke with Dilara over Zoom at her home in Turkey.
Anna Van Dine: So just to start really broadly, for somebody who might not be familiar with this term, how do you define peace education? What does that mean? What can it look like?
Dilara Ozel: So by definition, peace education can be considered as an umbrella term. So it helps, uh, people, not just children, but adults as well, to, uh, getting to know the other.
The other, uh, as we defined, who- whomever the other is, actually It's not just about being kind, but it's about, [00:15:00] uh, getting the knowledge that peace isn't just the opposite of war, but it's a- also about living together, understanding each other, et cetera, those kind of components. So to reach those components, peace education teach some skills based on this.
It includes conflict resolution, empathy, coexistence, communication skills, emotional awareness, et cetera, those kind of skills based on this idea, creating the peaceful existence. It can be a classroom, it can be a school. But I am looking at the peace education from a little bit different angle. Uh, peace education for me is a way of being, more than a field, uh, in pedagogy.
Anna Van Dine: Yeah, we'll get more into that a little bit later in the conversation, but you just mentioned schools and classrooms, and I wanna focus on that for a few minutes. In an article you [00:16:00] wrote, you said that, quote, "Teachers today cope with overcrowded classrooms, relentless policy demands, and the often invisible labor of care.
Within this weight, peace education is too often dismissed as just one more add-on, another activity, another poster on the wall, another soft skill squeezed into an already crowded timetable. But this dismissal misses the truth. Peace is not an extracurricular activity, it's at the core of what schools do."
Can you tell us what you mean by that? How does peace education fit into schools?
Dilara Ozel: Yeah. So I can start at the beginning. So by saying these crowded classrooms and the extracurricular things for the teachers, and the curriculum is so heavy sometimes for some grades, and teachers are demanded, I guess, too much, and I'm hearing from teachers as well, because there are so many trainings for them.
There are so many things to do for them. They need to [00:17:00] track down each student, their families most of the time, and they are giving care as well. So it's not just about the performance or the teaching. So they are looking in the eyes of the students. They try to understand the needs of them, if they are hungry, for example, if they are tired, if they did not sleep.
They need to understand it because they need to talk with the family. So in this whole busy schedule, it is so hard to teach peace, I guess, because as I said, for me, peace, peace is not just a curriculum or an activity, it's a way of being. It's, uh, uh, it's about being present. With student. So it's not just doing the activity because while doing the activity, actually children are watching you.
So, um, the teachers, they are not just teaching or doing the activity, they are actually showing [00:18:00] how the person, how the teacher, how a human being can, uh, behave in a situation like that. So the students actually learning about it, how they can behave, how they can choose their own words, uh, how they can tolerate the other, how they can, uh, empathize to the other, et cetera, those kind of skills.
And it is getting harder and harder when the classrooms are so crowded, especially the refugee receiving classrooms, or it shouldn't, it doesn't have to be a refugee, it might be just a student from a different culture, too, in the same country.
Anna Van Dine: Yeah. You also write, yeah, "Children experience conflict and belonging, exclusion and recognition every day in classrooms and corridors.
The question is not whether schools will engage in peace education, but what kind of peace they will cultivate and for whom." Um, it's, it seems like it's part of just every [00:19:00] day.
Dilara Ozel: Yeah, of course, because we are talking about the bullying, we are talking about the exclusion. So not every school receiving refugee, but every school, every family has a different path.
And in almost in every school there is bullying as well. So we, we know about those kind of issues. So peace should be in every school, in every classroom, starting by the teacher.
Anna Van Dine: And, and maybe this is a good moment to shift to some of the work you did for your PhD thesis as an example for some of what, what we're talking about.
You adapted a UNESCO peace education program for use in Turkish schools. Could you explain a bit about what the original program was and what kind of work UNESCO does around peace education?
Dilara Ozel: So UNESCO, actually, one of the first organizations started to talk about peace after the second World War, [00:20:00] because after the World Wars, they, uh, realized that the nationalism and the, uh, this creating the other idea can cause really bad things.
So they started to include peace education, harmony, et cetera, those kind of ideas. And, uh, UNESCO was one of the, uh, as I said, leading organizations. So this program was a little bit old, but it has also- So many components that is not suitable for the Turkish students. There were stories there, there were so irrelevant stories, irrelevant for us in Turkey.
So, uh, there were activities that could be a little bit, I don't know, it- they were a little bit weird, uh, for Turkish students again. So, um, yeah, I've translated all of the program, and I've changed most of it.
Anna Van Dine: And when you're talking about a program, is this like a, a [00:21:00] book that teachers can acquire, and then it gives them activities to do with their students, handouts, things like that?
Is that what it, what it actually looks like?
Dilara Ozel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, it's an open source in UNESCO's website, so there are different manuals. So, uh, there are one m- manual for teachers for them to read what the activities are, look like or how they can teach it, and one ma- manual just for the activities, et cetera.
Those, like, different kinds of manuals for, uh, activities, handouts, et cetera.
Anna Van Dine: And you were just getting at this, but you were working to adapt this for refugee-receiving schools in Turkey, which is different from what, what this UNESCO program was originally designed for. For people who might not be very familiar with what these schools look like, could you explain a bit about what, what these schools do look like and what kinds of students go there?
Dilara Ozel: Yeah. [00:22:00] So the refugees are going to the cities that they may know earlier or that they may have some relatives. They started to resettle there, and their children started to go to the school, uh, at that, those places. But those places mostly have the low socioeconomic status. So refugee people go to those places because there is cheap labor.
They can work without their education. Even if they are educated in wherever they come from, there might be their diplomas may not be recognized in Turkey, et cetera, those kind of problems. So we can imagine those schools, like infrastructure or the classrooms, uh, inside the schools were not enough already for Turkish students as well.
So, uh, those schools mostly receive refugee students.
Anna Van Dine: This is Peace Talks Radio. [00:23:00] We're talking with Dilara Ozel, a counselor and peace educator from Turkey, about peace education in refugee-receiving schools in Turkey, which is something that Dilara did her PhD thesis, um, based on. And y- you're, you're talking about this context, Dilara, where there are students in these schools who are from Turkey, students who are from other countries.
They're as refugees. Is there anything that you knew going into it about the dynamics between students? Were there conflicts? Was there bullying based around identity groups?
Dilara Ozel: So in the classroom that I conducted the program, they were mostly nine and 10 years old. Luckily, there was not much conflicts. So between groups, there might be some arguments or discussion, mostly [00:24:00] based on the language.
Because since they cannot understand each other, even if they want to play, while they're assigning roles, if the each part do not understand each other, and if one part do not obey the rules, and the rules are so important for the children, so it creates a problem.
Anna Van Dine: Well, in this particular classroom that you went into, how did you approach adapting this peace education program for this, this context?
Dilara Ozel: Uh, yeah, so I have conducted interviews with the students, families, and the teachers as well at first to understand their needs, and I understand that they don't know each other, actually. They don't know their cultures, both parts. They don't know each other's language. They don't know each other's, I don't know, the special days, et cetera.
So yeah, I realized that the problem is, is th- this one. They [00:25:00] don't, they don't recognize each other. So if you don't know someone, how can you live peacefully with them? So you need to encounter with them at first. So, um, of course, like I said, there were some conflicts, argumentations between students, but, um, I realized that these were coming from not recognizing each other as well.
So I adapted the program based on this idea. So yes, it has some communication skills and empathy and coexistence as well, but the main idea is for them to get to know each other. So we were drawing our families, for example. We were talking about our families, our own rooms, our own houses, how does it look like.
So, uh, I was always telling that, like, "Did you see that it has, uh, two brothers as well? Like, they are living with their grandmother, too." So they were really surprised [00:26:00] that two students actually figure out that they were neighbors. They didn't know that before talking about, uh, their neighborhood areas inside the classroom, so it was so interesting.
How could you, how couldn't you know that in the same classroom that you are coming every day, sitting side by side, but not knowing each other? So, uh, yeah, the idea was based on this one.
Anna Van Dine: What are some ways that all teachers can model this for their students, that they can embody peace?
Dilara Ozel: Before talking about peace and coexistence, we should be talking about the- Being respect, feeling seen, or being cared by the person who is in charge, which is the teacher in the classroom.
I need to differentiate between the emotions, if it's my emotion or their emotion, if it's my [00:27:00] thinking or their thinking, et cetera. So the teachers should realize this. They are teaching these histories, but they should realize how they are creating the other in their classroom. They need to question those histories, those fears that they have.
They can respond to their students as well. They can really see them as human beings inside those students. Being a teacher or a facilitator for peace education begins with getting to know ourselves first
HOST: That was correspondent Anna Van Dine speaking with Dilara Ozil. Earlier, she spoke with Marsha Richardson, a clinical psychologist and expert in child and adolescent development. In part two, our conversation with Dr. Marsha Richardson and Dilara Ozil continue. We'll explore questions like, can peace be taught?
What does peace education actually look like in classrooms, at [00:28:00] home, and in our communities? And what kinds of everyday experiences help children develop empathy, resilience, and the skills to navigate conflict throughout their lives? You can find both parts of this program, along with all of our episodes dating back to 2003, at peacetalksradio.com.
While you're there, you'll also find transcripts, photos of our guests, and a donate button where you can become a Peace Talks Radio Peace Leader by supporting the nonprofit work we do. We hope you'll join us there or stay with us as our conversation continues after the break. For correspondent Anna Van Dine, I'm Jessica Tichon.
Thanks for listening to and for supporting Peace Talks Radio[00:29:00] [00:30:00]
You're listening to Peace Talks Radio, the radio series and podcast on peacemaking and non-violent conflict resolution. I'm Jessica Tichten, today with correspondent Anna Van Dine. In the first half of today's program, we explored how children can make sense of war and conflict. In this next half, we turn to a different set of questions.
Can peace be taught? What does peace education actually look like? And what kinds of everyday experiences help children develop empathy, resilience, and the skills to navigate conflict throughout their lives? These questions matter not only when there's a war making headlines, but whenever children encounter conflict in their own lives, whether it's a disagreement with a friend, bullying at school, divisions in their community, or difficult conversations at home.
The way children learn to listen, communicate, and understand one another can shape how they respond to [00:31:00] conflict throughout their lives. We'll continue our conversations with Dr. Marsha Richardson and Dilara Ozal as they share ideas for helping the next generation grow into thoughtful citizens and effective peacemakers.
Anna Van Dine: But as you were working to adapt this program, this UNESCO program to this Turkish refugee receiving school context, did you learn anything that surprised you? Did w- was anything that you experienced as you were doing this research different than what you might have expected?
Dilara Ozel: Oh, I learned a lot.
Everything was so different than I expected. Really, I can say that because, oh, you are with students, you are with children, and children are so smart and they understand everything, and I guess they are a little bit challenging. So I am a somatic experiencing practitioner, and I got trainings on experiential play [00:32:00] therapy as well, grief therapy, so grief educators, all the credentials that they have.
And I worked at a, a preschool as well. And before that I worked with children, so I was considering myself as experienced because I worked with children. I got so many trainings, so what could I have gone wrong? So I was always telling myself this. But when I entered the classroom, it was, it was different because I was different than the person that I was working with children, and the context was different, and the classroom was different too.
So, um, yeah, for example, at the first session, one of the students, because, uh, this... I implemented the program after the huge two earthquakes happened in Turkey, so there was an internal migration as well. So there was one girl coming from the eastern part of Turkey, [00:33:00] so she was new in the classroom in the city.
Uh, she didn't know anyone, and I didn't know that because the teacher didn't tell me this. And when we were playing, because the first game was about the learning games, everybody of course knew about their names except me, and this girl was a little bit shy and I didn't understand. So yeah, I asked her like, "Are you okay?
Do you need something?" Et cetera. She told me that, "Oh, teacher, I didn't know anyone. I don't know anyone here, so I don't know any names." And like, "I don't know what to do. Yeah, I got trainings, but no training told me what to do in this context." So I, I just told her that, "Oh, this is lucky me because I don't know anyone either, so I have a company thanks to you, so we can learn the names together."
So I can see the sparkle in her eyes, really. So, uh, she started to join after I said this. [00:34:00] So those kind of human things, uh, challenged me. But I learned a lot to be present, actually. So yes, you have the trainings, yes, you have the education, but no education can tell the exact moments that you are having here.
Uh, they cannot prescribe anything that you are having here. So you just need to be present. You just need to understand the, uh, students, what they are saying, and you need to understand yourself as well. Like, it is something about me. If I am excited, I got the fear, anxiety, I don't know the, the emotions that they, that I was having or, or they are having.
So I need to differentiate those emotions, those positionalities as well. So I told myself, "Just be present inside the classroom." So that's [00:35:00] what I did, and I learn. That was the biggest learning for me, I guess. I learned how to be, how to stay in the classroom with them.
Anna Van Dine: So you were working on doing this peace education program in a Turkish context.
I wonder if you have thoughts about how a Turkish context for students might be similar or different to, for instance, a US context or, or to other countries. Does teaching peace to children look different in different places?
Dilara Ozel: So I don't think that the teaching peace is, is so different from one country to another because in all countries there's a growing hate or suffering, more authoritarianism, uh, which decides who can talk what, uh, and for whom, et cetera.
So the things that you can talk in Turkey [00:36:00] may be different in other countries as well, but there are certain kind of similarities. But at the same time, as I said, context matters so much, too. So I don't think that it is- it would be different because of the countries are different, but it will be different because the context is different.
Even at the same school, uh, two classrooms are different, uh, from each other. Of course, there will be some country-specific differences as well, but the way the teachers or the facilitators delivers peace, I don't think that it would be different or it should be different.
Anna Van Dine: Mm-hmm. And what is that, that common thing?
That thing that any teacher could bring into their classroom, what is that?
Dilara Ozel: [00:37:00] It's the, it's the way of being, the living with peace, I guess. Yeah. Because wherever they are facilitating peace, they first embody it. I know that it is hard, but they need to know their own needs, and they need to respond their needs at first, and then they try to understand the students as well.
I am saying that because I saw teachers, they just want to give, give whatever they have to the students. Like, they are not just teaching. But, like, if they are having a child at home who is sick, and if they are thinking about this child all the time, how they can give to the students inside the classroom?
They will be angry. They will be frustrated, and it is a human thing. It is so normal. They don't have to be a hero. They shouldn't be a hero. So they are not doing this [00:38:00] consciously, for sure, but especially in the schools, like I said, in the, uh, socioeconomic disadvantaged schools, they just got used it. They just got used to give so much, so they are not realizing it.
So that's why I'm telling that they should realize, and they should act upon it. So if they want to, uh, listen to the students, they just, they just need to take care of themselves first. It's not being selfish because if you are tired, you cannot listen anyone. So because you are a human being, you are not a robot.
Even robots cannot do that. So yeah, I think these are the first things that every teacher should do wherever they are.
Anna Van Dine: Mm. It sounds like teaching peace requires some amount of inner peace-
Dilara Ozel: Yeah ... then. Yeah,
Anna Van Dine: yeah. Something like that. Maybe not so corny, but...
Dilara Ozel: Yeah, yeah, of course, inner peace as well, but inner peace is just, uh, one part of it.
So [00:39:00] it's the one component, but there are, uh, other components as well. I am just, uh, writing a chapter on this issue. So, uh, they should, they should care about themselves, too. They should get to know their humanity, and they should, uh, respond their own needs. And they should do some reflexivity as well to get to know each other.
So of course, inner peace, there is inner peace, but it's just one part.
Anna Van Dine: A place to begin maybe.
Dilara Ozel: Yeah, yeah,
Anna Van Dine: yeah. Yeah.
Dilara Ozel: Yeah.
Anna Van Dine: So you just mentioned that you're, you're working on writing something. I, I know that this program that you worked on for your PhD thesis is, you know, is complete, and you're on a different chapter of your own work now in private practice as a counselor.
I wonder how you think about peace education now.
Dilara Ozel: It is not that different, actually. So I- Started to come up with these ideas after [00:40:00] I finished my PhD because while you are doing your PhD, oh, it's a, it's a nightmare, so To everyone who is doing, doing their PhDs, so hang in there. So after the PhD, I started to reflect upon it, and I am actually a cont- I continue with my peace education research as well.
We actually just finished one program in the eastern part of Turkey, and it was the, again, same results from students as well. I was not the facilitator. Someone else was the facilitator, but I was always talking about those things that I've mentioned, uh, to him, and it was in the English language classroom.
And one children wrote that, "Everybody teached English, but this teacher cared about us. He j- he did not just teach English." So this sentence actually I [00:41:00] think summarize the whole idea. So yeah, after getting those reflections and after the PhD, I started to think in this way.
Anna Van Dine: I'm glad to hear that you are continuing doing the work of peace education in Turkey and thinking about all of these things.
Dilara Ozel, thank you so much for joining us on Peace Talks Radio.
Dilara Ozel: Thank you so much for inviting me.
Anna Van Dine: This is Peace Talks Radio. We're talking with Marsha Richardson, a clinical psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania, about how to talk with young people about war and conflict. Dr. Richardson, I wanna talk a little bit more about where young people might be getting information from, like general exposure, because it feels like even very young kids have smartphones and tablets and borrow their parents' and have a kind of access that many people who are currently grown-ups didn't have when they were younger.
Anna Van Dine: How can adults [00:42:00] help young people and kids manage their interactions with news and social media, especially when it comes to these heavy, complicated topics?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: I think engaging in ongoing conversations and asking questions like, "Where did you hear this from? What are your friends saying about it? Have you talked about it in school?
What videos or posts have come across your page or whatever? What are the influencers that you follow? What are they saying? How can you tell what is true and not true?" And if they don't know or if they haven't considered that, help them explore the different ways of challenging what they're hearing. So again, it's understanding where they're getting the information, and the quality of the information that they are receiving can create teachable moments, can teach them media literacy and critical thinking skills, particularly from a developmental perspective, particularly [00:43:00] amongst preteens and adolescents for sure.
Anna Van Dine: So far we've been talking about adults as just like a group, but I wonder about adults in these scenarios, how interactions with kids, these conversations about war might look different if they are a parent or a teacher, or if the child of their friend comes to them with a question. Do you have any advice for how adults might tailor their responses to different relationships and different situations?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Yeah, that's a tough question because so many outside forces influence that, depending upon where you are literally in the US in particular. Because unfortunately, in certain school districts, there has been a stripping of knowledge There has been sanctions and limitations as to what can be taught and what can be discussed.
Uh, and if you're a parent who really supports the critical thinking and [00:44:00] supports the child developing an understanding of different perspectives, a lot of the work is gonna be in the home. And on a flip side, you might have a student or a child might report to you that a teacher expressed a certain opinion or a value statement or a belief about something that doesn't resonate with your own values and beliefs in your household.
And so I'm not a big fan of cancel culture, but I'm a big fan of, okay, that's a different perspective. It's neither right or wrong. It is what it is. This is the value that this person holds. I'm not gonna sit there and judge that. Understand that these are our values, or these are our beliefs kind of thing.
Anna Van Dine: The other thing I wanna ask you about is these, war and conflict, especially for younger kids, but also for older kids, you mentioned a different developmental stage, there might be bigger emotions involved. Are there certain signs that might [00:45:00] indicate to an adult that a professional might be needed to help a child cope with the things that they're learning?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: I think some of the telltale signs that something might be going on, great question to ask a child. I'll ask you, what is the typical response for a teenager when an adult asks, "How are you?" What do they typically say?
Anna Van Dine: They say, "Fine."
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Or good. Or
Anna Van Dine: good.
Dr. Marsha Richardson: I encourage adults to ask a follow-up question, and that question is, how will I know if you're not okay or not fine?
What would I see? What would I hear? What would you be doing? So that, that does two things. That demonstrates or displays to the child that here is an adult who cares and wants to deeply know what's happening with me. And notice I said, "What's happening?" and not, "What's wrong?" And two, it's encouraging the child to be reflective, self-reflective.
We're [00:46:00] trying to help them have a better understanding of who they are, right? But some, some signs that a child may be struggling with what's happening in the world, there might be an increase in anxiety and fearfulness or worry. So you can hear that in the way they talk, the things that they may perseverate over.
Sleep disturbances. Children might start to experience nightmares, lack of sleep, sleeping too much kind of thing. Changes in appetite. Eating too much, not eating enough, not interested in eating. Irritability and aggression Withdrawal from activities, so loss of interest in things that used to bring them joy, and excessive preoccupation in war-related issues and content.
Constantly checking out news, constantly looking for information about what's happening in a particular part of the world, things like that. And I would say, [00:47:00] too, that in isolation, these are, like, distinct kind of behaviors, so also take them all within, in the context. So consider what was the child doing before any or all of these issues started to arise.
How, what I just listed, how's it impacting their overall functioning? And so if there's a drastic change, yeah, there's cause to be concerned and possibly to look for some assistance in helping them.
Anna Van Dine: For a child who might be really interested in playing war, or who's really having a G.I. Joe phase, and it seems tied to current events, is that something that a parent should be concerned about?
What is going on there for a kid who might be bringing that into their play?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: I interpret play as a child's way of, and understand their world. [00:48:00] Play is a way that a child expresses emotions and what they're thinking, but don't necessarily have the words right now. So it really depends. It's funny you asked this question, 'cause I, earlier this morning, I was cleaning out my garage, and I came across my children's old toys.
So I have a 20-year-old and a 21-year-old, but I found their G.I. Joe gear and their army men and their water guns and, you know- grenades and all of this other stuff. Play is imaginative. Play is creative. It's a way to understand their world. I would pay particular attention to it if it's directed toward if they're identifying bad people.
Who are those bad people, and where did they come up with the idea that these toy soldiers are bad people? And so, that's where parents and caregivers can come in and step in, and engage in a corrective emotional [00:49:00] experience with the act of playing.
Anna Van Dine: And what about your own kids? How did you make your way through these conversations with them?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: They're constant conversations, and I love it. They're home from college now, and just the other night we were talking about a particular statement that a politician made, and there's some very strong opinions in our household. And how their father and I have talked about, again, that dialectical thinking, looking at the both/and.
We have very strong opinions, but we allow them the space to make their own opinions known, and thoughts and feelings. My husband is a historian, and so he loves to tell them the history of how we ended up at this particular point. We also talk about the capitalistic gains being made with regards to some of the decisions that are being made by the government.
And again, that abstract thinking is not [00:50:00] just the war, but what's the impetus behind it? What's driving it kind of thing. So, those are the conversations that we're having, and it's interesting, and sometimes it gets loud, and we have CNN on the TV, and we make our comments and, or argue our points.
Anna Van Dine: It sounds like the way your family approaches it is to try to complicate the conversation as much as possible.
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Yeah, absolutely.
Anna Van Dine: I bet that's fun with college-age kids.
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Yes. My son, my rising junior, he lives with a, a group of boys in his frat house, and sometimes I'll get 3:00 AM texts, "Ma, we were talking about this. What's your perspective?" And a couple of them have different political leanings than he does, and he had a biased opinion about the political leanings, but now he's listening more of...
and the rationale for their appreciation. So again, he's engaging in that dialectical thinking. It's like, not all people in a certain political [00:51:00] party are ogres kind of thing. So that's good to hear him develop that.
Anna Van Dine: Yeah. With the encouraging complex thinking, I wanna shift how we're talking a little bit, too, because we're talking about war and conflict, and how to talk about that with children.
But kind of the other side of that coin is how to Teach children how to resolve conflict, how to teach them about peace, how to bring a certain, maybe a mindfulness to your interactions with young people to hopefully create a more peaceful future. Do you have any thoughts or tips that you would give to people on how to encourage peace?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: It reflects on another aspect of the work that I do. I work with Dr. Howard Stevenson and his Line Story program, and [00:52:00] the gist of that is racial literacy, racial resilience, and even beyond just racial literacy, it's accepting and understanding and appreciating all of our various identities. And by doing so, it's through storytelling.
We get to know somebody through storytelling. And so the work that we do is we bring a, a broad variety of people together, and we start talking about stories. We start talking about their first racial story. When was the first time you experienced a racial incident, where you knew and felt that you were different?
And hearing those stories, whether I'm a woman of color versus sitting next to me, a white woman or a white male or an Asian man, hearing those stories brings us together. And it brings a higher level of humanity and understanding. Howard Stevenson's brother, Bryan Stevenson, talks about [00:53:00] proximity. Getting close to those people you knew nothing about and are using your biases and assumptions about them as opposed to getting to know them.
I think that is a rudimentary way of opening the doors to have communication and conversations about resolving conflict. To me, conflict is you're not understanding or appreciating what the other side is thinking and doing and feeling, so let's try to sit down and talk about that.
Anna Van Dine: That's... It sounds like you're saying that when you don't understand something, to teach young people that when they don't understand something, the answer to that is to not to reject it, but to try to understand it?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: To lean into it, yeah
Anna Van Dine: And is that something that grownups can model for the children in their lives?
Dr. Marsha Richardson: Oh, I think so. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's hard, especially for adults, it's hard. But I think they can. Again, when you're talking about sitting at your [00:54:00] dining room table or in front of the TV, engage in a little compassion and grace, and try to take the perspective of the other side.
You don't necessarily have to agree with it, but to have a better understanding for the rationale of why things are happening might be extremely helpful. Yeah, I think for me, some of the core principles of, like, peace building for all ages, real simple, but, like, empathy, being able to understand other person's feelings and experiences, respect, treating them with dignity, even when disagreements exist, treating them with dignity.
Looking for solutions as opposed to assigning blame. Approaching the conflict with a sense of we have a shared goal of peace, and we wanna share this earth collaboratively and safely together. So engaging in a cooperative stance perspective, I think is really important. And then when there [00:55:00] is some peace or the conflict resolves, there is room for and space for and time for forgiveness and repair.
So acknowledging the harm and figuring out ways to make amends and rebuilding the relationships, I think is key.
HOST: That was correspondent Anna Van Dine speaking with Dr. Marsha Richardson and Dilara Ozel. Today we've explored how children learn about conflict and whether peace can be taught. We'll leave you with one final voice.
HOST: Elementary school teacher Danny Banky offers one example of what that can look like in everyday practice. Here's an excerpt from a previous Peace Talks Radio conversation
Danny Banky: That sense of belonging and sense of community aspect is at the heart of my teaching philosophy. I got very lucky with this group.
Danny Banky: They are an exceptional group of kiddos, but as far as really blending and coming together as a community, it definitely didn't just happen. We do circle every [00:56:00] morning. I just think it's a really beautiful way to start the day together, and sometimes we'll end the day with a quick closing circle as well, being something as simple as what made you smile today or what were you grateful for today.
And the most special part of that is that there's a little bit of energy and chatter or excitement sometimes, but for the most part, they're able to fully listen to each other, making eye contact and listening to their peers about how their weekend went or something that, exciting that's going on in their life.
They genuinely respect each other in a way that I've never seen before. I never wanna be punitive. I never want it to be like, "This is my classroom." I opened the year saying, "This is our classroom." And we even made a contract together. I didn't give them expectations. We created them together, so that creation of a community as students and an adult brought us a- almost on [00:57:00] an equal playing field where they know I respect them, and then in return they respect me.
Like, they know that at the end of the day I'm here for them, whatever they need. Like, they can trust me.
HOST: Dani says she's always learning from her students as well.
Danny Banker: Really young people, they're not even preteens yet, um, they know a lot more about the world than adults expect them to or think they do. Um, and that's a huge part of my practice as well, is, uh, engaging in criticality.
We do that with a lot of anti-racist work together, and that has been, especially in our political climate this year, has been so healing for me, honestly. Because in a time when we might be losing hope in the future of our country, I'm able to look at the future every day and be like, "Oh, you, you are all amazing humans," and I actually feel like it's going to be [00:58:00] okay.
And that really just comes from them showing up every day and being excited to be here and to engage in whatever the work is for that day.
HOST: That was elementary school teacher Danny Banky. If you'd like to hear the complete conversation with Dr. Marsha Richardson and Dilara Ozel, you'll find it along with other transcripts, photos of our guests, and more than two decades of Peace Talks Radio programs at peacetalksradio.com.
HOST: While you're there, you can sign up for our podcast, share this episode, and support the nonprofit work of Peace Talks Radio. Support comes from listeners like you, also from the McCune Foundation. Nola Daves Moses is our executive director. Ali Adelman composed and performs our theme music. For correspondent Anna Van Dine, co-founders Paul Ingles and Suzanne Kryder, I'm Jessica Ticktin.
Thanks for listening to and for supporting Peace Talks Radio.
