Transcript
Reframing The Holidays: Towards Justice and Peace
HOST: Thanksgiving, Columbus Day, veterans Day. What happens when the stories behind our holidays don't tell the whole truth? On this edition of Peace Talks Radio, we hear from people working to rename and reclaim these commemorations and why it matters for peace and justice
Mahtowin Munro clip
“Students, often middle school or high school students who come in and testify and say, I read about this. I learned about this. Why are we celebrating Columbus? Like they're angry.”
HOST: Columbus Day has been replaced in many communities, but it's not the only holiday people are reframing. Veterans Day is clearly a recruitment tool, and it asks us not to think critically about what soldiers are actually doing around the world, but just celebrating the idea that they are, “serving in the military”.
HOST:Reframing holidays today on Peace Talk Radio.
This is Peace Talks Radio, the radio series and podcast on peacemaking and nonviolent conflict resolution. Whether it's the search for inner peace, harmony in our closest relationships or understanding in our workplaces, schools, neighborhoods, and beyond. We explore it here on Peace Talks Radio. From personal moments to global movements, we consider what it takes to build a more peaceful world.
I'm Jessica Ticktin today with Correspondent Andrew Stelzer. Our days off from school and work are precious and many of us are so caught up in our daily lives that we don't always stop to consider why we've marked that special date on the calendar. But what we choose to collectively honor and why shape our national and cultural identities.
When there are false narratives behind those holidays, it can be hurtful and harmful. Those stories might be covering up painful truths. The holiday names can be used to promote the political agendas of those in power. For this episode, we hear from people working to rename and reclaim several holidays, Thanksgiving, Columbus Day and Veterans Day.
In part two of this episode, we'll talk to Rory Fanning, a former US Army Ranger turned war resistor. He's part of a campaign to give Veterans Day back to its pre 1954 name Armistice Day. But first in part one, we'll hear about a gathering and ceremony held in Plymouth, Massachusetts each fourth Thursday of November the day, more popularly known as Thanksgiving.
In 1970, the United American Indians of New England declared Thanksgiving Day to be a national day of mourning for Native Americans. Over the years, the day has included protest marches, passionate speeches, arrests, and more, all in an effort to educate the greater public about the true story of how indigenous people of the region interacted with the so-called pilgrims and the painful legacy of that relationship.
Here's Andrew Steler interviewing Mahtowin Munro, the co-leader of the United American Indians of New England.
Andrew Stelzer: It's important to get one thing clear right from the start. As Mahtowin Munro explained to me, the National Day of Mourning isn't the same as the more well-known campaign to rename Columbus Day.
Mahtowin: We don't go to towns and ask them to pass resolutions to get rid of Thanksgiving as a holiday. We're not demanding, everybody call it National Day of Mourning. We're not, but we feel that it's important to get rid of that false mythology.
Andrew Stelzer: Munro has been helping organize the National Day of Mourning since the 1990s, and she first attended back in the eighties.
She says, the myth of peaceful pilgrims and Indians sitting down together to a celebratory feast won't just fade away. It has to be replaced with the truth. The story doesn't start with the pilgrims. There's more than 12,000 years of Wampanoag history prior to the arrival of the pilgrims. It's a history Munro herself has continued to learn and teach over time.
When you were growing up, what was your family and community doing and feeling on the fourth Thursday of November? What was that time like? What did that mean?
Mahtowin:Well, for my family, everyone appreciated the Thanksgiving aspect of Thanksgiving. That is the idea of giving thanks, because as native people, we give thanks every day.
That's an important part of our lives and of our spiritual practices. There was certainly. An idea though that the way that the Thanksgiving myth was presented was really problematic for us. I don't think my family knew the exact history at that time, but we did, even as kids understand that native people didn't live happily ever after.
The whole problem is that the Thanksgiving myth is dishonest, and it does make it seem. Though the pilgrims, who by the way, weren't even called pilgrims, landed on Plymouth Rock, which they didn't do. They landed first in Provincetown, by the way. And the rest of the myth is that the native people welcome those pilgrims with open arms and shared a harvest feast, and then we somehow, as the native people, somehow faded into the background and that's the end of it. It's like we disappeared into the forest or something. And even a long time ago when I was a kid, we felt uncomfortable with that myth because we knew that things could not possibly have been going that well because we were well aware of how settlers have behaved with indigenous peoples for a very long time.
And we also knew that we hadn't just faded into the background, that obviously there had to still be native people around.
Andrew: And then how over the years did your understanding of. Thanksgiving and that time of the year change and, and how did your feelings change? What was the evolution?
Mahtowin: Well, I, at a certain point, I started to hear about National Day of Mourning in the sense that it was a day of pride and truth telling and activism and prayer.
That was led by native people in Plymouth who come in from all over, who came in from all over to be there at the very first National Day of Mourning in 1970, but to continue it over the years. And I started to learn more about what actually had happened very specifically in Massachusetts, in the Plymouth Plantation, in the various colonies that the English set up within the New England region and.
I personally started fasting on Thanksgiving at that time. It wasn't though until the 1980s that I started attending National Day of Mourning, and the traditional thing that we did at National Day of Mourning as it turned out, was to fast during the day. We would start to fast the night before, so-called Thanksgiving, and then would fast during the day and after the speak out was done, we would go and have a social afterwards. I think a lot of people think it's, oh, it's just another protest or just another demonstration. But we're in ceremony all day. We start the ceremony the day before, in fact, with the fasting. So it has significance on a lot of levels.
Andrew: I’m speaking with Mahtowin Munro, the co-leader of the United American Indians of New England.
When you got involved in the 1980s, how did you learn about the history of the particular events in Plymouth that had began in 1970? And tell us a little bit about the history of the event.
Mahtowin: The first time I went to National Day of Mourning, I went with some people who had been going for years and who, who had told me about it, and I was really excited to go and I met Wamsutta Frank James, who was a founder of National Day of Mourning and got to know him very well over the years, but he had a, a lot of details about the history that certainly had not been discussed or acknowledged that. At that point, the 1960s going into the 1970s, there was was a time of what was called the Red Power Movement and American Indian Movement, and many other organizations were protesting police brutality and native communities.
There was an organization here in New England called the Federated Eastern Indian League, which would become later United American Indians of New England. Our organization, we came from that organization. There were many organizations and individuals who were. Being insistent that indigenous people should no longer be ignored in some places such as Massachusetts.
It was happening in a state that basically acted as though native people were all extinct, which was crazy. Once that of, Wamsutta Frank James said that he and his siblings grew up being told in school that there were no Indians left anymore. Even though there they were then they certainly knew that they were Aquin Wampanoag.
So. There were all these things happening, and I would say a big spark was in November of 1969. There were about 200 native people who seized the old penitentiary on Alcatraz Island in San Francisco, and for 19 months. Native people occupy the island to draw attention to the conditions on Indian reservations.
And, uh, ever since then, they have had un Thanksgiving day out at Alcatraz here in so-called New England Wamsutta Frank James. Was invited by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to speak at a banquet in 1970, which was to celebrate the 350th anniversary of the arrival of the pilgrims, the organizers of the banquet.
Thought that he was gonna come in and give an appreciative and complimentary speech saying, oh, thank you so much for coming here, and we're such good friends, pilgrims and native people together, do that kind of thing about how wonderful it was that the pilgrims had come and I think they thought that he was literally gonna thank the pilgrims are bringing civilization to wampanoag people.
However, the speech that he wrote was not exactly complimentary at all. The state asked. For an advanced copy of his speech, and when they saw it, they freaked out and told him that he could not deliver it, that that was not okay, that he would have to change it. This is because Wamutta’s speech not only named some of the atrocities by the settlers.
Reflected upon the treatment of the wampanoag at the hand of the pilgrims, but also contained a powerful message of native pride. So the state said the speech was too inflammatory, and they said that he could speak only if you were willing to praise the pilgrims. The organizers even offered to write a speech for him to put words in his mouth, and this is something that they wanted him to do that would fit in better with their settler colonial narrative. But Wamsutta was a person of integrity and refused to have those words put into his mouth. His so-called suppressed speech of 1970 was then printed in newspapers across the country, and he and other local native activists began to plan a protest. The flyer for that first protest in 1970 was circulated among native people, so people around the country heard about this and the flyer said.
What do we have to be thankful for? The United American Indians of New England has declared Thanksgiving day to be a national day of mourning for Native Americans, and so it was a shot that was fired into this. What's settler colonialism considers to be this holy, sacred holiday of Thanksgiving? That is nothing but lies about how native people were treated and what happened to native people after the invasion of Europeans.
Andrew: And so what happened from there? How did the day evolve and how did that name National Day of Mourning continue to spread?
Mahtowin: Sure. So on so-called Thanksgiving Day, 1970, Wamsutta and members of at least 25 tribes, not just tribes from this region, but people who came in from other places as well as non-native allies came here to what's called.
Coles Hill, which is a hill in Plymouth, which overlooks the harbor and is right above where the Plymouth Rock monument is. And that was the first National Day of Mourning. That first year Wamsutta didn't get a chance to deliver his suppressed speech. Because there was a lot going on. There were up to 200 native people and allies gathered on that day.
They spoke out about the pilgrim invasion and about the conditions in Indian country to set the record straight about how native people were actually living. They marched around Plymouth. There's a replica of the Mayflower at the Plymouth Waterfront. They boarded the Mayflower too, and they threw the English flag overboard and they even buried Plymouth Rock burying.Plymouth Rock was something that we did multiple years, but it started the first year.
Andrew: What? What does that mean? You buried it?
Mahtowin: Well, Plymouth Rock is not this giant. Rock of Gibraltar kind of thing. Plymouth Rock is maybe as big as a dresser drawer, you know, it's not that big. It's not where they landed.
And they dragged this rock from the middle of town and it broke, and they dragged it down and put this kind of cage around it, and then built this whole proscenium arch thing over on top of it. So it's always interesting to us when we march in Plymouth every year to see the tourists. Kind of standing around looking at the rock, looking disappointed, which is an appropriate response to it.
But also, we often will speak to the, we speak to the tourists too, and we're like, hello tourists. This is maybe not what you were expecting today, but we're here to tell you the truth about Thanksgiving and what really happened here. So a lot of what we're doing is educating, you know, that first day I would say blossomed and, and the word really spread about what had happened at Plymouth. And so it became an annual event, national Day of Mourning. During the 1970s, our organization, United American Indians of New England, demanded the return of the bones of a Wampanoag girl that were being held by the grave digger settlers at the Pilgrim Hall Museum, which is in Plymouth at the fourth National Day of Mourning.
Wamsutta and protestors marched into the Pilgrim Hall Museum and took the bones back so that they could receive a proper burial. This was long before the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, and there's also a plaque that tells the history a little bit about Metacom, who was the leader of the Wampanoag during the uprising of 1675 through 1676.
Which is called King Phillips War. We always do give the history of the Thanksgiving myth and then we talk about why it's false, and we tell the true history of what happened with the arrival of the pilgrims, what happened throughout the years in so-called Massachusetts and New England. We also though, are not stuck in the past we talk about what's happening now. We have had speakers from New Zealand and Australia and Ecuador, and many from Mexico, certainly from Alaska, you know, Hawaii. We've had indigenous speakers from all over.
But really when they come, they're bringing a message from where they live. They're bringing a message of their own history and of their own community's experience under settler colonialism, and there's an energy from Native people only speaking that day. We only allow native speakers that day. And the reason is, and this the elders taught us this, they said non-native people never listen to us.
There has to be one day of the year when they only listen to native people. The hope is that you feel a lot of strength from being in that crowd and from, I don't know how to explain it.
You have, we have a crowd of more than a thousand people. You can hear a pin drop when people are giving speeches. You can really feel the crowd seeing that they can be in a space together where everybody takes care of each other. Everybody feels safe with each other, and people are just listening and learning and thinking about what they can take with them from the day as sustenance to continue the various struggles as we move forward in the next year. And it's the day of the year that I feel the possibility of the future, the possibility that non-native people can listen to native people. The possibility that non-native people can learn and do better.
And respect what we have to say and the possibility always of indigenous unity, of us being able to act together and to create a lot of change together.
Andrew: You're listening to Peace Talks Radio. I'm Andrew Stelzer and I'm speaking with Mahtowin Munro, the co-leader of the United American Indians of New England.
The group helps organize the annual National Day of Mourning in Plymouth, Massachusetts. In 1997 when National Day of Mourning protestors attempted to block the annual Pilgrims Progress Parade, police used pepper spray on the crowd and arrested 25 people. In the wake of that incident, a legal settlement was reached, dropping charges against most of the protestors, allowing for an annual demonstration and incorporating Native history into local tourism and education initiatives.
The National Day of Mourning continues to be an opportunity to tell the truth about Thanksgiving and reflect on how our society might move forward differently. Now back to my conversation with Mahtowin Munro, where we also discuss the now widespread campaign to abolish Columbus Day and rename it as Indigenous People's Day.
If Thanksgiving went away in this country through some sort of consensus that that name and that whole holiday was no longer appropriate, would there still be a need for a national day of mourning? In other words, if the truth was being told, would this still be necessary?
Mahtowin: I think there are a lot of people who understand that the myth of thanksgiving is false.
They may not have all the details, but they know that there's something wrong with it, and they know that it should instead be a day to mourn and honor indigenous people. There are people all around the country who fast on that day. Who may sit down with their families to have a Thanksgiving meal, but read the suppressed speech of once that of Wamsutta Frank James is part of that, or read something else from our organization that is about the Thanksgiving myth and why it's not correct and what actually happened.
Kids are taught a lot of stuff in school. That's just not true. And what we see all the time is people being furious, actually non-native people being furious. That they were taught lies when they find out the truth. That's true about Thanksgiving. It's very true about Columbus, and it's true for a lot of other occasions, I would say as well.
And some people, when they get angry, reject it. They can't deal with the truth. They just clinging desperately to the thing that they were taught as kids or what have you. But I think many people are hungry for the truth, and so it's important that we continue to get it out there. We don't go to towns and ask them to pass resolutions.
To get rid of Thanksgiving as a holiday. I mean, that's not something that we're doing. Trying to undo the mythology is a very hard thing because 'cause it's so embedded, certainly for progressive families in the area. They certainly bring their children very often because they want their children to hear the truth.
Their children largely are not hearing about any of this kind of thing in school. Elementary school students in particular are still. Put through these little drills where half the class dresses up as pilgrims and half the class puts a cardboard feather in their hair and, and says that they're Indians and they pretend that they're having this wonderful Thanksgiving meal together.
It's very much like. With Columbus, too many school children are continuing to be told that Columbus was brave and a fantastic man, and discovered America when, of course, nobody invited him and we didn't need to be discovered. But it's along those same lines of taking this colonial holiday and flipping it upside down and saying, this is not what this is about at all.
So it's not really just about a, a renaming or a reclaiming.
Andrew: I know you've also been involved in campaigns around Columbus Day and renaming that Indigenous People's Day. How does it compare or contrast with that campaign, which a lot of listeners are probably maybe more familiar with?
Mahtowin: Well, we, we've been very involved in campaigns to abolish Columbus Day and replace it with Indigenous People's Day. And, um, there's more than two dozen cities and towns in Massachusetts that do that. Now, I would say with that issue, there's always two things to do. One is to explain why Columbus should not be celebrated anymore. Why that's just intolerable.
Why that. Teaches the wrong thing to children in particular. And we also need to, we always talk about the impact of celebrating Columbus on native communities and especially on Native children. One of the reasons that I have done that work for many years is because of my own shelter and experience they went through at school.
Around being told that they had to sing about how Columbus discovered America for you and me and things like that. You know, a lot of native parents have deep experience of having to go to the principal's office to have meetings about this sort of nonsense. And then we explain that we wanna replace Columbus Day with something positive though, which is Indigenous People's Day, which is very positive. It's really meant to center native people, especially to center indigenous peoples and nations from that area where people live, so that settlers learn more about the tribal nations in their area and also so that. It creates employment for native people as well on Indigenous people's day because there's always demand for drummers and singers and speakers and what have you, and poets, you know, so all that is good.
But you know, we bring something really positive to replace something that's horrific. Celebrating a genocidal monster, that's what they're doing when they celebrate Columbus Thanksgiving, I would say we're not against people giving thanks. We try to make that clear. We give thanks all the time as native people. We open our day at National Day of Mourning with a prayer ceremony. We close with a prayer ceremony. We give thanks throughout that, so that that's very important to us. We're not against people getting together with their families or chosen families or, or what have you, and sitting down and, and having a meal and giving thanks. That's an important thing for everyone to do. What we're saying is it's giving thanks over the bodies. The indigenous people who were slaughtered as a result of the pilgrim and other invasions, and it's giving thanks without understanding or acknowledging what the consequences were of the pilgrim invasion.
When the pilgrims arrived, the first thing that they did was they robbed graves at Corn Hill. Native graves. Then they say that the Wampanoag saved the pilgrims from starvation. Well, actually, that's true. You're welcome. But the rest of it is not true. But the first actual declaration of Thanksgiving in what is now Massachusetts, happened in 1637.
Many years after the pilgrims came in 1620. In 1637, there was a declaration to celebrate the massacre of over 700 Pequot native men, women, and children on the banks of the Mystic River in Connecticut. So this was to celebrate the return of the English soldiers who had gone down there and participated in this massacre.
That's what the first Thanksgiving was in Massachusetts.
Andrew: How does truth telling, how does understanding our history more accurately make our communities better or make our country better, or make for a more peaceful society? How is that good for us besides the fact that we know more?
Mahtowin: Well, I would say if we understand each other, we can work together better and so I think anybody who's had the experience in their lives of learning about a different history of learning about a different culture, it changes you in some way. You can begin to understand other people better, and that's important to be able to do because I'm not trying to make anybody feel guilty.
I'm not saying, oh, you're white and your ancestors did this, and you need to walk around feeling guilty. I'm not saying that at all, actually. I'm saying you need to understand this truth and think about what your current role is in this truth and think about how you benefited. From what happened, how you have privilege because of what happened, things like that.
You know, if people can have these conversations, I think a lot of change could happen.
HOST: That was correspondent Andrew Stelzer speaking with Mahtowin Munro, co-leader of the United American Indians of New England. Each year, her group organizes the National Day of Mourning as a counter narrative to Thanksgiving. You can learn more about that work on their website and we'll link to it@peacetalksradio.com.
You'll also find both parts of this program on our website, along with other episodes we've produced since 2002. There you can read transcripts, see photos of our guests, and discover much more detail about each show. And if you'd like to help keep these stories of peace and dialogue on the air, there's a donate button waiting for you.
It's a simple way to become a peace leader by supporting the nonprofit work we do here at Peace Talks Radio. Coming up after the break, a holiday, you know, with a history you might not. Former Army Ranger, Rory Fanning explains why he's fighting to restore Veteran's Day to his original name. Armistice Day.
Stay with us.
(Music Break)
This is Peace Talks Radio, the radio series and podcast on peacemaking and nonviolent conflict resolution. I am Jessica Ticktin today with Correspondent Andrew Stelzer. This is the second half of a two-part program about transforming holidays. In part one, we heard from Mahtowin Munro, the co-leader of the United American Indians of New England, about the day of mourning, which is held each year on the same day as Thanksgiving.
This time on Peace Talks Radio Andrew speaks with Rory Fanning, a former US Army Ranger turned conscientious objector about turning Veteran's Day back to its original name, armistice Day. Armistice Day was created in 1919. The first anniversary of the Armistice signed to end World War I. It was commemorated, not just in the United States, but other allied countries like France and the United Kingdom.
In 1926, it became a holiday in the us. And the goal, according to a proclamation by President Calvin Coolidge, was to quote, “perpetuate peace through goodwill and mutual understanding between nations” end quote. It was almost 30 years later in 1954 that the day's name shifted to Veteran's Day. The recalibrated purpose, according to President Eisenhower, was to “solemnly, remember the sacrifices of all those who fought so valiantly on the seas, in the air, and on foreign shores to preserve our heritage of freedom”. During his time in Afghanistan, Rory Fanning was heavily influenced by what happened to one of his unit members, a professional football player named Pat Tillman, who was killed by friendly fire. The military initially reported that Tillman was shot by enemy combatants, and there have long been accusations that it was an attempt to cover up the actual cause of death.
Following his own discharge, fanning walked across the United States for the Pat Tillman Foundation. He's also worked on counter recruitment campaigns, housing activism, and now works for Haymarket Books. And among the issues he writes about and advocates for is a reclaiming of Armistice Day correspondent Andrew Stelzer Talked to Fanning about the history of Armistice Day and why he thinks that returning the holiday to its roots might make us all think a bit deeper about the gravity of war and peace.
Andrew: Pretty quickly after Rory Fanning joined the military, he realized he wanted out.
Rory Fanning: I said, this is it. After my first deployment, which was about nine months, this makes no sense. And they said, well, too bad you're going anyway. I was like, fine, I'll go back to Afghanistan, but I'm not. Carrying a weapon and they said, fine, but you're gonna go and you're gonna walk with the donkeys and sleep outside and you know, not eat the same food, what the rest of the soldiers are eating”.
Andrew: It was a lesson in how much or how little the military valued him.
Rory: As long as you're not questioning the mission or questioning the motivations for these wars, you're fine. But the second you do, you're an outcast. Even if you were a veteran.
Andrew: To my years, fanning didn't seem like the stereotypical soldier questioning what you're told isn't what the military is known for. So I began our conversation by asking why someone like him would enlist in the Army in the first place.
Rory: I saw the, those planes hit the twin towers and said, I want to do my part to prevent something like that from ever happening again. So I decided I was gonna join the military. I had just graduated from college and I was looking for a way to pay back student loans and also not, you know, go work in a cubicle, but I also wanna do something meaningful.
And the military seemed to check a lot of those boxes. I had a sense when he joined the military that uh, you're less of a person and more of a piece of equipment. So I wanted to sign up. For, um, you know, the special forces and get as much training as possible. If I was gonna die, I was gonna die in a, in a situation that I felt like at least had some thought and consideration behind it.
When I landed Afghanistan, I was expecting bullets to be whizzing by my head. It was kind of the opposite. It was very quiet. I was struck by the amount of poverty that existed in that country. But I also realized that we had no idea what we were doing there. There was no attempt to understand the culture.
Very few people that I was with understood the language. I didn't know at the time that the Taliban had surrendered about a month before we arrived in the country. And I think our job was to draw the. People who may have supported, uh, Osama bin Laden back into the fight. But ultimately I think it was just about maintain, finding a good excuse to maintain trillion dollar a year military budgets.
But, um, I found myself to be a bit of a bully, uh, when I was there walking, actually not a bit of a, we were, the US military is absolutely a bully in, at that moment in time. You know, we would occupy a school and, and we would see two military age. Guys walk by and not show a proper level of deference, and we'd put one in one room and one in the other, and the guy sitting by himself would hear a gunshot.
And then we'd go into the room with the guy sitting by himself and ask him if there was anything he wanted to tell us. Of course, this person, these guys had no idea where Manhattan was, or what 9/11 was, or anything along those lines. They were just kind of upset by the fact that their school was being occupied by, by military, I mean we were making the world a much more dangerous place and I wanted to no part of that.
And beyond that, we were about to invade another sovereign country, Iraq to maintain, you know, spheres of influence in the region and control other country's natural resources. And that's not what I signed up for.
Andrew: It sounds like your perspective was pretty quickly shifted by what you saw. It sounds like a, it wasn't that much of a gradual transformation.
You arrived in country and everything was sort of flipped upside down.
Rory: Yeah. I mean, our forward operating base would be hit with a rocket from, you know, some mountain side, and we would actually not have an idea where that rocket came from. So we would call in a 500 pound bomb and it would drop in some general vicinity near the site and you know, God knows who and what we kind of destroyed in the process of responding to that rocket attack. And this wasn't just an exception, this was a bit of a rule. And I also realized that we were, you know, usually nothing more than ponds and village dispute most of the time. I mean, we came with suitcases full of money and you go into the poorest place in the world and say, where's the Taliban? You know, people are gonna come outta the woodwork. I'll tell you where the Taliban is. And then they hand over their tenant who didn't pay their rent in a year and say, that person's a member of the Taliban. Now gimme a thousand dollars.
You know? And I mean, this wasn't just an exception. This was the rule. And. It was a joke, and so I, I felt very kind of betrayed or misled and so, yeah, I just decided that if I was gonna maintain my integrity and, and, uh, I would, I had, I had to leave the military. It, it, it was just. A fool is errand over there.
Yeah, and I think killing someone for a cause you don't understand or killing someone. So rich people can get richer or maintain trillion dollar a year. Defense budgets is kind of worse than dying yourself or losing a limb. I mean, there's a thing called moral injury. That happens. So I became one of the first US Army rangers to become a war resistor, uh, probably the first US Army Ranger to become a war resistor After 2001, I served in the same unit as Pat Tillman, the former NFL star, who famously gave up $3.6 million NFL contract to serve in the military.
Pat and his brother Kevin were two of the only people who kinda stood by me while I was becoming a war resistor. And not longer. After I was released from the military, I walked across the United States for the Pat Tillman Foundation to raise the 3.6 million that Pat gave up when he left the NFL for his foundation.
You know, it was a long process, you know, going from eager soldier to skeptical. Kind of radical, but it's a journey I'm very proud of. And I wrote a book about my walk called Worth Fighting for that came out in 2014. And since then I've been talking to high schools and colleges about why they should think critically about joining the military and kind of push back against some of the talking points that the 10,000.
You know, military recruiters roaming the hallways across high schools and college campuses are, are selling young people.
Andrew: I'm speaking with author, activist, and US Army veteran, Rory Fanning. When did you first hear of Armistice Day and what were your thoughts?
Rory: Yeah, I don't think I heard about our mystics day until I was in my early thirties, to be honest with you.
I may have heard about it, I, but I just didn't know what it meant or why it came about. And then I think once I started working with an organization called Veterans for Peace and then just doing reading on my own, I came to understand and appreciate the differences between our, our mystics day and Veterans Day.
And I think there's a huge gulf.
Andrew: And, and to you, what are the big differences? What, take us through what you know, and also perhaps if you could bring us back to, as you were learning about the history, what did it bring up for you?
Rory:Well, I mean, I, I knew World War I was the war to end all wars, and there had been few wars as brutal and as devastating as World War I, and our mystics day was created as a day that celebrated peace and was a day.
That said, you know what? We can't afford as a species to, um, go through what we went through in World War I ever again. So Armistice day was, it was a day to celebrate peace as opposed to, uh, veteran's Day, which I think is a recruitment tool and a day that celebrates. War. And I think that argument kind of is understood better when you see that Veterans Day was instituted in 1954 and the US had just exited the Korean War in defeat.
And I think the US government and the US military needed a recruitment tool and so they needed to celebrate veterans in in uncritical way and. I think you can't really do that. You know, if you're celebrating peace, unless you're doing all kinds of mental gymnastics. And that was, I think, the original design of Armistice day.
But Veteran's Day is clearly a recruitment tool, and it asks us not to think critically about what soldiers are actually doing around the world, but just celebrating the idea that they are serving in the military regardless of whether it's. Participating in the overthrow of a democratically elected country in a place like Guatemala or Chile or Iran, or whether it's a, not a, you know, a war of major attrition like we saw in Vietnam, you know.
If a soldier went and signed up for the military, they should be patted on the back and celebrated at concerts and sporting events regardless of what they did. And I think we are far past the time in which we need to start thinking critically about the actual missions, and I think Veterans Day discourages that kind of critical thinking.
Andrew: This is Peace Talks Radio. I'm Andrew Stelzer and I'm speaking with Rory Fanning, who served two deployments in Afghanistan as a US Army Ranger before he was given conscientious objector status. He's written two books, including one about his life titled Worth Fighting for an Army Ranger's Journey out of the Military and Across America.
And one of the many campaigns he's involved with is an effort to have Veterans Day renamed with its original title Armistice Day. Back to our conversation. I'll read just a little bit from Calvin Coolidge's, proclamation of Arm Day 1926. The recurring anniversary of this date should be commemorated with Thanksgiving and prayer and exercises designed to perpetuate peace through goodwill and mutual understanding between nations.
Do you think in 2025 or even probably 15, 20 years ago when you learned about this. Is any of that still part of what we think about or acknowledge on Veterans Day? Do you think there's any slivers of that reminder? Left.
Rory: No, I think it's a very nationalistic holiday and encourages chauvinism and xenophobia in many ways.
I mean, I think that's just the general tone of, you know, all of politics at this point. It's us against the World America first, you know? And there isn't that kind of internationalism that I think was the intention of our mystic day. You know, it's like recognizing. That we have more in common with the poor and working class in a place like North Korea than we do.
The billionaires in generals that are in this, in the United States, I think is an important point, and I think it. Something like Armistice Day reaffirms that idea. You're quoting Calvin Coolidge. I, I like to quote, you know, Kurt Vonnegut on the subject who was a World War II veteran and wrote in 1973, Armistice day has become Veterans Day.
Armistice day was sacred. Veteran's Day is not so I'll throw Veteran's Day over my shoulder or Mrs. Day. I will keep, I don't want to throw away any sacred things. So, yeah, I think that's an important point that Vonnegut made. You know, Armistice Day was sacred because it was intended to evoke memories of fear, pain, suffering, military incompetence, greed, and in destruction, you know, on a grand scale, particularly for those who participated in the war.
And you know, Armistice Day was a hallowed anniversary because it was supposed to protect future life and from future wars.
Andrew: I'm wondering logistically. If you know what it would take to transform Veterans Day, back to Armistice Day and, and also culturally, what would have to happen? Would that have to originate in the military?Would the public mount a campaign? If we were to do something like that, where would it have to sort of originate and, and how do you think that could take place?
Rory: I think we start by kind of. Not romanticizing war the way we do in movies and video games and sporting events where we call out veterans and pat them on the back regardless of what they participated in.
I also think people need to come to terms with their own history. Gore Vidal called it the United States of Amnesia, you know, and I think, I think he was onto something if we understood the brutality of wars like Vietnam, where two and a half million people were essentially burned alive. And that's not even talking about the amount of American soldiers that died in the war.
But these wars are nothing to be celebrated and nothing to honor. And I, I think we connected with that history a little bit more. It would become like this visceral understanding amongst people that, you know, we have to prevent war and we have to do everything in our ability to do that. You know, the US military has a billion dollar a year advertising budget, and that doesn't include some of the, the video games and the movies that celebrate war, and that needs to be pushed back on in so many ways.
Andrew: Do you think we could have both, could we or should we honor veterans on a different day, or is there a way to honor military veterans as peacemakers and sort of mark both the warrior and the peace they can bring on the same day?
Rory: I just don't think there's a lot of historical evidence to suggest that soldiers have participated in bringing peace to the world. I think it's the opposite, and I think we have to do everything to discourage more war. And I think you discourage more war by not providing the soldiers that are necessary to fight those wars. And so. I think we just have to step back entirely from just the framing of how we see veterans in this country.
Yes, we sympathize. I think most veterans do the best with the information they have access to at the time. They're subject to so much propaganda, but I do think we need to give veterans space to talk about the realities of war way more. You know, it'd be great if soldiers came out at halftime and, and talked about all the, the horror that is war as opposed to just patting on the back and celebrating them and not letting them speak.
And I don't think there's enough space for anti-war veterans. And I think most veterans that have seen combat are anti-war veterans. They don't, there's not enough space for them to kind of discuss that truth.
Andrew: I don't know if you can remember, but before you heard about Armistice Day, maybe before you were even in the military, do you remember what your feeling was about Veterans Day and did you think it was good, worthwhile, could care less? What were your feelings back then?
Rory: You know, everybody's just so busy in their own day-to-day routines and you know, it's, it's hard to kind of step back and maybe question some of the fundamental institutions that this country depends on. So I had this idea that the US was a force for freedom and democracy around the world, you know, and I think people refer regularly to World War II as.
the prime example of that. And you know, there certainly was important things done by the US military in order to prevent the spread of fascism at World War II, but I think World War II has been used to justify all the other wars that have come after that. But yeah, I mean, I just, I would normally just look at, you know, the Veterans Day parades and say, yeah, that's great that these people who sacrificed for their country are honored. I mean, it makes a ton of sense and we should honor people who sacrifice for their country. But there comes a point when you realize that people are not sacrificing for their country, they're sacrificing so that billionaires can become richer, or the US can control parts of the world they have no business being in.
And I think that's kind of an important point that more people need to make.
Andrew: I think I have read that you as a conscientious objector, somebody who chose to leave the military, you've had instances where you were not received very well out in walking the streets, telling people you're a veteran. Their reaction shifts to you once they find that out. So I'm just wondering if that's true and, and you know, thoughts on that in regards to how we supposedly honor our veterans, but maybe only sometimes.
Rory: Yeah, it does seem that we honor our veterans as long as they shut up and just say, thank you for the parking spot at Home Depot, or whatever crumbs the culture wants to throw at you.
But yeah, I saw that pretty vividly when I went to a Trump rally. This is in 2016 in my. Fatigues, at least the jacket. And I was getting a bunch of pats on the back, and then when I started questioning Trump and, and the, the hyper nationalism that I was seeing at this event, they turned on me like rabid dogs and threw me out of the, out of the rally.
So yeah, I think there is. You know, thank you for your service and respect the veterans with major conditions. As long as you're not questioning the mission or questioning the motivations for these wars, you're fine. But the second you do, you're an outcast. Even if you were a veteran, there's a huge hypocrisy there.
Andrew: that kind of reminds me of, I don't know if you'd call it the converse, but when I think about the conversations, I'm sure you've had hundreds of times about Armistice Day or other issues. You get the reaction, what you don't care about veterans, you wanna take away their day or unpatriotic, they risk their lives and die for you. The way that veterans can be sort of weaponized as a way to shut down conversations about military funding, about war and peace, similar to what you just said, but in a different way where it's a conversation stopper. It's a sort of line in the sand.
Rory: Yes. It's, it's just a way to shut people up and to not have them discuss the uncomfortable truths of war. I mean, that's, it's in very bad faith that these kind of discussions happen and, um, it's cowardly and also to not you know, respect and honor a soldier's experiences in war, particularly if you haven't served yourself, I think is pretty pathetic. And you know, that's not to say that I don't think veterans deserve the absolute best kind of medical care, the best treatment, because they did go off and fulfill what they perceived as their end of the bargain.
You know, you go off and risk your life for this country, you should be protected. For the rest of your life afterwards? I just think there should be less veterans. I think there should be less people signing up for the military, but those who have served should be treated with dignity and respect and get the all the care that they have earned.
Andrew: How would you respond to the suggestion that the United States doesn't deserve Armistice Day? That celebrating peace simply wouldn't be a reflection of our culture in. 2025, it wouldn't be appropriate because of who we are as a people and who this country is right now.
Rory: Well, I think the vast majority of us deserve a holiday like Armistice Day.
The war makers certainly don't, but I think there should be a day that not only celebrates that time in 1919 when people said there would be no war, or that was the war to end all wars, but also a, a forward looking day that say, this is what we need to aspire towards, and that's a world without war. You know, we're running up against the limitations of the planet, whether it be through climate or just the nuclear weapons that exist.
We, we can't afford to be uncritical when it comes to that next war.
Andrew: Is this really a big deal? I'm sure some people might hear you talking about this and say, oh, whatever, it's just the name. It's just a holiday. This isn't important.
Rory: Well, the US government seems to think it's a big deal or unless they wouldn't have changed it and re redesigned the day, uh, as a day that celebrates war as opposed to peace.
So they might be onto something, but I also don't think there's any small deeds when it comes to advocating for peace and justice around the world. Any small thing you can do gives people confidence and courage to build off of it. And I think days like this are absolutely necessary, particularly in a country that has been addicted to war since it's founding.
When President Eisenhower affirmed the congressional name change in 1954 to change the holiday to Veterans Day, that proclamation actually still did have the word peace in it. It said, let us re consecrate ourselves to the task of promoting an enduring peace.
Andrew: Obviously you weren't alive back then, but do you think the original meaning of Armistice Day had already been forgotten by then? Or did the change in the name of the holiday lead to the sort of collective forgetting to your understanding, how did things change, sort of a chicken or egg question?
Rory: I think you can see time and time again where people distort words in order to kind of promote a certain agenda. I think even just the word defense department assumes that the US military is only acting in self-defense when that is the opposite of true, you know, the US military goes out to controls other country's natural resources and overthrow leaders that don't align with the interests of US markets. So yeah, I think people can use words and do the opposite. And I think Orwell talked about that quite a bit, you know, so, you know, it's important propaganda tool to say you're doing one thing and but do the other.
Andrew: You've been out of active service for about 20 years, and I'm guessing the majority of your personal network with former military might be through Veterans for Peace, but I'm wondering outside those who might consider themselves peace activists, former military members, what kind of space is there for conversations about peace within the ranks, active and retired? When you're interacting with people like that, or what's your understanding? Can these conversations take place? How much space is there for a diversity of opinion?
Rory: Well, I guess it depends on the environment. I mean, when you are in a, you know, relatively elite military unit, I think there is far less space for critical thinking and decision making skills, or else you wouldn't be in that position.
But I do think after the dust settles and people have experienced the horrors of war there's plenty of space for that. It's really, really hard to justify a. The current trajectory of the US military at this point, and if you come armed with your facts, and you also have to make sure you're engaging in good faith discussions with people who actually care about the morality and ethics of what we're doing around the world. Some people are indifferent to that and you're just gonna bang your head up against the wall. But I think there are millions of people out there that have a strong moral and ethical framework that are open to evolving in terms of the way they look at the, you know, US military and its actions around the world.
And I think you look for every opportunity and space to have those conversations.
HOST: That was correspondent Andrew Stelzer speaking with Army veteran, conscientious objector, author and activist Rory Fanning. One of the two books he's written is a memoir titled, worth Fighting for an Army Rangers Journey Out of the Military and Across America You can find a link to his work on our website, peace Talks radio.com.
In part one, we also featured Mahtowin Munro, the co-leader of the United American Indians of New England. Together their voices remind us that reframing holidays isn't just about names or dates. It's about how we remember, how we heal and how we make space for peace in our shared history. At Peace Talks Radio, we've been sharing stories like these since 2002, conversations that show how nonviolent approaches can transform conflict in families, schools, and communities.
Today, 70 stations in 25 states carry our work- proof that there is still a hunger for stories of peace in a noisy world. To learn more about this program, go to peace talks radio.com and look for season 23, episode 11. You can also hear all the programs in our series dating back to 2002. See photos of our guests, read and share transcripts.
It's also where you can sign up for our newsletter, and importantly, where you can make a donation to keep this program going into the future. Support comes from listeners like you, as well as the Albuquerque Community Foundation Ties Fund and KUNM at the University of New Mexico. Nola Daves Moses is our executive director, Ali Adelman, composed and performed our theme music. For correspondent Andrew Stelzer, co-founders, Suzanne Kryder and Paul Ingles. I'm Jessica Ticktin. Thanks so much for listening to and for supporting Peace Talks Radio.
