Peace Talks Radio
Transcript: Finding Peace in the Waves of Perimenopausal Anxiety
Today on Peace Talks Radio, we delve into the topic of perimenopause and the onset of chronic anxiety.
(Kavitha clip)
I had two C-sections. We went through a ton of fertility treatments. I didn't think I could become a mom one day. That was hard, but this feels so much harder.
(Stephanie clip)
I walked in that room and my heart was beating so fast, and my body was so tight and tense.
(Ruth clip)
Don't ignore your symptoms. Don't ignore how you're feeling.
HOST: How to recognize perimenopausal anxiety and ways to cope to create a more peaceful transition in your life, work and relationships.
This is Peace Talks Radio, the radio series and podcast on peacemaking and nonviolent conflict resolution. I'm Jessica Ticktin in for series producer Paul Ingles today with correspondent Julia Joubert. Whether it's the search for inner peace or seeking peace in our closest relationships or with others in our workplaces, schools, neighborhoods, our cities and towns, our nation and our world, we consider it here on Peace Talks Radio.
Perimenopause may seem like a women's health issue, but in fact, it's a human issue, an experience that ripples through families, workplaces, and communities. In opening the conversation today, we hope to create deeper empathy, allow for healing through validation, and explore solutions through the lived experiences of women from around the world.
Perimenopause is the transitional phase leading up to menopause. It typically starts in a woman's forties, but can begin as early as mid thirties and lasts for several years. A global 2024 study led by researchers at University College London found that women are 40% more likely to experience depression during perimenopause compared to those not undergoing menopausal changes.
And yet the anxiety during perimenopause is often misdiagnosed and dismissed, leaving many women feeling confused and ashamed. So today we ask how can women recognize perimenopausal anxiety, find ways to cope and communicate, and crucially, how can partners, communities, and workplaces proactively offer the understanding and support needed to navigate this transition more peacefully.
In today's program, you'll hear from three women, Penny Lumley, Stephanie Shaw, and Kavitha Ness. We will also hear from expert Ruth Devlin, a registered nurse and educator based in Scotland, working to normalize the conversation through her organization “Let's talk Menopause”. Correspondent Julia Joubert introduces our first guests.
JULIA: I start our conversation today by asking each woman to reflect on when they first noticed something was changing, not just in their bodies, but in their sense of self. This is where their stories begin. Here is Stephanie Shaw, the Ohio based host of Hallow Hot Flash.
Stephanie Shaw: Yeah, so back then it wasn't really how I felt about myself that like there was no shame or there was no feeling like a, a sense of being unworthy or anything like that.
Mine was fair because if you look at a list of perimenopausal symptoms, and there was about 105 that I. A group out of Canada have been able to identify. I had about 40 of them, so I didn't know what was going on. That's part of the anxiety that started. I was acting out of fear. What is happening to my body?
It's breaking down. Why are my eyes twitching? Why, you know, are my hands and feet tingling? Why is my heartbeat so rapid? Just from taking 16 steps? So no impression around me as a person, just the fear around all of what was going on.
JULIA: Here is Penny Lumley, a teacher and a carer who works with traumatized youth in Cape Town, South Africa.
In my early forties, from sleeping Perfectly, I just stopped sleeping and that just. So messed with everything I did during the day. I was just tired and anxious and grumpy, and every night the stress of trying to go to sleep. And then at the same time, I also, in perimenopause time, from my forties to my fifties, I picked up like 12 kilograms.
From doing very little different. So I felt very out of control of my body and out of control of my life because habits and things I'd relied on before were not just coming easy. I always used to make a big effort to socialize, have people round. I loved having people round. All of a sudden it just became.
Too much of an effort and I don't know if that's got to do a little bit with anxiety. Mm-hmm. I became very sort of isolated and homebound and just all I wanted to do was look after my daughter and just deal with everyday life instead of adding other people to it.
JULIA: Here is Kavitha Nass, a 51-year-old woman based in McLean, Virginia working in marketing and strategy.
Kavitha: I haven't felt quite like myself, like I just feel like a different being a little bit just, um. In ways that I can't multitask as well or I can't remember things or I can't just get through the day with as much energy. So I just feel like a lesser version of myself than even just five years ago.
Perimenopause, and I didn't realize it at the time, definitely was affecting me more, just getting out of bed, reacting so much more to simple questions with my husband, fighting more, and I think that was a lot of driven by anxiety. From insomnia and racing thoughts to full blown panic attacks, the anxiety of perimenopause is rarely anticipated.
JULIA: So I wanted to know when did our guests realize this was more than just everyday stress? Here's Penny.
Penny Lumley: I feel like it crept up on me and before I realized it, just normal things like driving and going into messy to the home where the children are. Whereas before I would take it in my stride, I became just really, really scared all the time.
Scared of driving, scared. What other people are doing actually like. Hypervigilance, then everything was just going absolutely perfect. And I hadn't had a period for about three months. And I remember thinking, there's absolutely nothing in my life I need to be worrying about. Why do I have this free floating kind of anxiety where you just are continually anticipating everything going wrong or feeling like something's gonna jump out at you?
JULIA: And how old were you then?
Penny: 52.
Directly with like my period stopping. And that's when I realized it and I got highly irritable. You know, normally I've got patience with the kids and they were all of a sudden driving me absolutely insane. And I remember thinking, what is wrong with me? Why am I so irritable? At first, you start blaming burnouts.
It's the end of the year, it's December, but everything was going well. It wasn't, I can't say there was any significance. Thing in my life that should have been stressing me yet I was incredibly just anxious, but also I was aware that I hadn't had, you know, a period for some time.
JULIA: This is Peace Talks Radio, and I'm Julia Joubert.
Today we are discussing anxiety and perimenopause. Joining us are Penny Lumley. Stephanie Shaw, Kavitha ness and nurse and educator, Ruth Devlin, who share their stories and offer insights on how to recognize perimenopausal anxiety, open up lines of communication and create more peaceful environments at home, at work and beyond.
Stephanie: I was on a business trip in, in New Orleans for some reason I wanted to go to Bourbon Street. I don't party or anything, but I'm like. You're here. Let's go to Bourbon Street. And I kit you not. I stepped onto Bourbon Street and I just felt this anxiety now is what I can say it is, overwhelm my body. I didn't understand it.
I started to shake, my jaw went numb, and then I ended up in two different ERs that very night. I laid in the lobby in a hotel like convulsing and shaking. I, my body was just breaking down. I always stop. Huh? Just suck it up and keep going and, and I openly apologized to anyone who I ever thought that to in my mind, because in New Orleans, no, I did not recognize as an anxiety at all.
That's not the way I thought. So it took probably er visit 5, 6, 7 maybe for me to understand that it was anxiety. And then I started to think backwards. Almost every ER visit somehow tied to. An event or an action or the thought of taking a new medicine or the thought of them not being able to quote unquote fix me.
So it, it took a while for me to get there, but once I recognized that, it was magical because then I could pause before we all jumped in the car.
Kavitha: I've always been anxious as a child. I would get stomach aches before tests and things like that. It always manifested itself in my body. And, um, as I got older, I was able to understand like my, I feel the anxiety in my stomach and my chest.
And then after I got married, my husband, who's a very calm person, I would just be like, oh, I read this email. I'm feeling so anxious. And he would be really good and we would talk through it to kind of identify what was causing that. And I could talk myself through it and get over it and rationalize it.
And then the last couple of years, the anxiety, like I remember just getting ready for bed and trying to quiet myself, and I would have these thoughts of. My husband dying or me dying, or my kids, something like horrific happening and just crying and not being able to sleep. And I have traveled and traveled my whole life now.
I was like. I'm afraid to get on a plane. Just these little things that would never have affected me was affecting my daily life. Even reading the news cycle, especially in the States right now, it just like would spiral me. And then this is peace talk. So this is very ironic in that I would never consider owning or having a gun in my house, ever in my life.
And all of a sudden I'm like, we live so close to dc. Is this something that we need? And that was all just anxiety driven. It's just like I have such, like I've never felt where I couldn't control it. I was just nervous all the time. And that's the other thing, it was just freezing me 'cause I was so nervous or anxious or stressed, whatever the word is.
I ended up just being frozen. I feel like most of last year I was just going through the motions of doing what I needed to do. Versus that's usually like I pride in myself, like friends call me a doer in that I'm always like pushing myself forward. I'm very self-motivated and the last couple years it hasn't been that way.
JULIA: Here is expert Ruth Devlin, a registered nurse and educator based in Scotland, working to normalize the conversation through her organization “Let's talk menopause”. I asked her what is actually happening both mentally and physically in perimenopause that can lead to the symptom of chronic anxiety.
Ruth: Okay, so I just first like to say that just if everybody listening, it can just keep in the back of their minds.
It's such a complex topic, menopause, and we all have our own individual experiences, so one person's experience is gonna be. So, so different to another person. So first of all, never compare yourself to other people. The one of the most important things to understand is that you don't choose to go through the menopause, and that for some people can be immediately relieving because you're thinking, oh gosh, hang on, this isn't my fault. I'm feeling like this. So the main culprit is estrogen, got lots of different hormones floating around your body, but your main culprit is, is estrogen. That is fluctuating and declining. Fluctuation is a really important word to hang on to because your hormones don't steadily decline.
They're fluctuating up and down throughout the day, not just from week to week and month to month throughout every day. And there's lots of different contributive factors which can make you feel worse or better throughout the day. So. That's causing an imbalance of those hormones. When you get an imbalance of anything in your body, your body is going to react in a certain way, and that can trigger certain symptoms.
There's a huge amount of symptoms that are associated with the menopause, and some of those are the psychological emotional symptoms. They can be the first symptoms to appear for a lot of people, and they sort of creep in. As your hormones start to slowly decline and fluctuate, you might just. Get the odd hint that something's happening, but you might be putting it down to other stresses in your life at that time.
So you might be getting a little bit more irritable, you might be getting a little bit angry. You're sort of thinking, well, gosh, I'm really not coping with things very well and it's so anywhere other. Symptoms start to appear that you then start to think, hang on a minute, putting two to two together.
Maybe that's why I'm experiencing these psychological, emotional symptoms, but they can be some of the most debilitating symptoms. 'cause it's hard to understand for a lot of people how to cope with those.
JULIA: For many, the path to treatment or support is filled with confusion, self-diagnosis, trial and error, and a healthcare system they find isn't quite up to speed with the realities of perimenopause Here, the woman described their journey to understanding what was happening and how hard it was to be taken seriously.
Stephanie: A couple of them had really good relationships with, and we're still friends outside of the office, but the conversation of menopause never came up because they only focus on the part of the body that they know how to focus on. There was no conversation being had about, oh. A twitching eye and rapid heartbeat and tingling in the hands and feet and, you know, hair loss.
Hmm, maybe there's a hormone problem. Like no one ever connected those dots. And I had to do that for myself. So I saw a cardiologist, neurologist, a physical therapist. Multiple chiropractors, acupuncturists, gynecologists, ophthalmologists. So I saw the whole gamut of different healthcare providers During this time.
I was fortunate that I had a friend who knew a naturopath. He's a chiropractor and naturopath, but he was able to give me one test, like I'd spent over $20,000. He gave me one test and it's like, this, this, this, this is wrong with you and this, this, this is what you need to do. I'm like. Oh my goodness, because he hit every single point, even things that I didn't tell him was going on.
So there, there was this disconnect for me as it related to medical practitioners. I was able to get support from the naturopath, and that's how I started the healing process. But the whole process took about two years.
JULIA: Kavitha had similar issues with the healthcare system in the United States.
Kavitha: I think perimenopause was such a big factor in the last four years.
I also like got COVID and I think I had long COVID. I lost my voice for like six months and then my father passed away in August of 21 as well. And so, and then we had to move my mom and my mom's health isn't well, so it has been a very. Turbulent couple of years. And I remember like, because I thought it was long COVID, I went to see doctors and about like my fatigue and my anxiety and all that.
And then the anxiety wasn't the biggest thing, but I would go see my doctor and they, and the first thing they say is antidepressants. And then they say, you need to lose weight. 'cause I gained a lot of weight and gluten-free and dairy-free. And I know those things are all important. But I knew my body that it, that wasn't it.
Like, yeah, I, I've been eating these things forever. I don't feel like myself at all. And then I went to see a naturopath and it was a lot of diet changes and movement. And then they pat me on so many supplements and I'm. While I believe in all sorts of care, it also has to fit within your life. And I was like, there's like 20 things you need to be taking and I just like, this is not working for me either.
And then I kind of just was just doing the bare minimum on my own research honestly. Like it's so sad. Like I think it was like using TikTok and finding things on that and like, it's ridiculous 'cause I'm like, I studied science and I would never just falsely believe these things, but I didn't find anything through traditional channels that was helping me. And I was just really even, I even went a couple times to try to understand getting on HRT. I went to my OB and they're like, you have to have already gone through menopause before you get this. And like everybody was just telling me so many different things that that didn't, and it's like not, at least in the states, navigating all this.
It's a full-time job, like finding doctors insurance. So then I just sort of gave up because I really tried through doctors. I think that's what's so frustrating to me is that you don't get the same answer from anybody. This is what's also, it's become so surprising to me. Even, even I'm hearing even gynecologists are not saying it right.
JULIA: You're coming in as a. Late forties, early fifties, women saying, these are my symptoms. And they're saying, oh, probably not me. You know, you should probably go get antidepressants or, you know, lose weight or eat differently.
Kavitha: Right.
JULIA: And if I'm understanding correctly, you were asking for this.
Kavitha: Yes.
JULIA: It wasn't being offered to you.
Kavitha: Never.
JULIA: You just kept pushing until you found a place that gave you what you had asked for, meaning you did all the research yourself. In the hope of being given hormone replacement therapy?
Kavitha: A hundred percent. No one ever ever mentioned in, in a medical setting, menopause or perimenopause to me. But yeah, and that's like as a educated woman with, you know, financial means, couldn't get a straight answer.
I cannot imagine, you know, for other people how difficult this is gonna be.
JULIA: This is Peace Talks Radio, and I'm Julia Bert. Today we are discussing anxiety and perimenopause. Like both Stephanie and Kavitha and most women experiencing these symptoms, Penny did a lot of her own research and advises other women to do the same.
Penny: Number one, they've gotta educate themselves and very carefully analyze sort of what age they were, look at what age their parents who act, just see like, you know, 'cause often there is a familial history as well. And then just talk to other women who are going through it as well. It gives you insights into things you wouldn't normally have noticed as being part of it and just thinking, oh, that's just me and one of my failings.
Whereas when you hear a whole bunch of people saying the same thing, you realize this is a symptom. And to me, that helps you better diagnose yourself, give part and better information to your doctor about what's going on so they can help you better dismiss symptoms and don't pass them on. That's often why doctors can't do their jobs 'cause it's this total lack of communication or woman not telling the whole story.
And you know, besides medication is just communication.
JULIA: While expert Ruth Devlin does acknowledge the global challenge of consistent care, she believes it is important to look after your own body and to go to a specialist.
Ruth: Well, I think as in anywhere in the world, human beings are dealing with human beings. So we have fantastic practitioners and then we have people who aren't quite up to speed. So getting that consistent care throughout the world is the challenge. Definitely. And I think if you're not specialized in an area, if you haven't got all the information on board, then you're not going to go a good a job as somebody who is specializing in women's health.
So I, it's a tricky one to answer. I, the attitude towards HRT is definitely improving. I think, you know, past reports we're not gonna go into that 'cause it's too con confusing for people. But just your HRT is the first line treatment for the menopause. But you do have this backup of the SSRIs as well. But definitely I think, you know, universally there's overprescribing of SSRIs before people are given the opportunity to try different things.
JULIA: So if SSRIs are potentially overprescribed, hrts are first line treatment, but many doctors do not recognize the symptoms in perimenopausal women and therefore don't offer them to patients. What can women do? What actually helps, as we've heard from our guests, finding a treatment that works is rarely linear, but over time, these women found strategies that brought them home to themselves.
To start, Ruth Devlin shares the first steps women can take to lower stress levels.
Ruth: So before anybody prescribes any medication, they should be asking you about your lifestyle factors. Do you have a good diet? You know is do you cook from fresh? You're not cutting any of the major food groups out. You haven't got too many ultra processed foods in there, so you're not having loads of sugar spikes.
All these things are going to exacerbate symptoms. Do you know you're not giving your body the best chance? If you're just shoving rubbish food into your body, you're going to raise your levels of stress and anxiety. What are your caffeine levels? Like? What are your alcohol levels like? Are you well hydrated?
Do you exercise if you don't like exercise? Are you moving lots throughout the day? These things, people will go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard this before, and then they'll immediately go to the medication. But you have to realize that your body's so complex. You know, think of it as a car. You've got a car which runs on diesel, then if you put the wrong fuel in there, it's not going to work as well.
It's as simple as that. You have to feed your body what it needs, and you have to do your job. This is your job to look after your body. You've only got one body, and your responsibility is to look after that body. I'm not gonna tell anybody to become a tea total or to become completely decaffeinated. We, we all have a really nice cup of coffee, but if you are having loads of hot flushes and experts throughout the day, obviously that is one of the triggers.
So any of the stimulants are triggers, so that's within your control. So you might think, okay, I'm gonna enjoy my really good cup of coffee in the morning and then I'm going to switch another drinks throughout the day. And that's my decision. And doing that one little tiny thing can improve your quality of life.
JULIA: Mm-hmm. And you mentioned that you've done work with CBD and I, I wanna say it is a given that therapy. Is helpful, but it is also worth acknowledging that it is a, it's a privilege and a luxury that many can't afford. Do you have any options or recommendations for people who might not be able to afford therapy?
Ruth: Absolutely. I think basic tools and strategies of cognitive behavioral therapy are so useful. There are so many videos on YouTube about diaphragmatic breathing, breathing intentionally, learning how to do that. People like think, oh God, I've heard about this. People breathing in and out deeply. Yeah, yeah.
That's not gonna help. It genuinely does help, you know, learning, if you do yoga, Pilates, you, you start to learn how to breathe intentionally, don't you? So it is. Just simple things like that and practicing them makes such difference because then that gives you that start of element of control. If you practice it, it becomes second nature so that if you feel yourself getting agitated and stressed, maybe within the workplace you're getting irritable, you can just take yourself away and do some diaphragmatic breathing.
People say, I don't have time for that. You do. You get into bed, you can do it for five minutes. Before you get outta bed, you can do it for five minutes. It makes an enormous difference. I just, you know, learning how to meditate. I can't meditate at all, but I can do the CBT, but we're all very different, aren't we?
It's finding what works for you and not just thinking, right, I need to do this, this, and this because so and so and so and so is taking this or having this. You have to find your own way and what fits into your lifestyle. That's the most important thing. And try things and if they don't work, try something else.
JULIA: For Penny, exercise and diet didn't initially do anything to help with her anxiety symptoms, but she found other methods.
Penny: They definitely did bring my anxiety down, but breathing the conscious, breathing, also just getting out there and I found I've become a lot more sociable. I find, uh, so lean on the support of my friends now who are all similar ages to me just chatting and knowing you're not the only one going through this.
I would say it took about a year to actually accept that I might need to asking everybody what. They were on and reading up. You know what estrogen replaces, what? Progesterone helps testosterone's a big one. I'm a lot more motivated and energetic. Definitely less irritable, and my anxiety does still sometimes shoot up, but I do think possibly I could do with maybe more estrogen.
But at the moment I just sort of thought, I'll take it for six months, see how it goes.
JULIA: Through years of work, Stephanie's symptoms have gotten a lot better, and she says it's because she now understands what's going on in her body.
Stephanie: I now know what I can and cannot eat. I now know that I can't go an excessive amount of time without exercising.
I need to always be mindful of the amount of sleep that I'm getting, the amount of stress that I'm allowing in my life. So just understanding my triggers has made it easier over these years. I spent a lot of time studying the word of God, praying over myself, having other people pray for me, and then also starting to tell myself the truth about some things.
Like sometimes people, friends, family members are not good for you. You may still respect them, love them, but sometimes you gotta let 'em go and or have a big girl conversation with them.
JULIA: In the midst of perimenopause, Kavitha began uncovering how small shifts in routine could either cause her to spiral or soothe her.
Kavitha: The fatigue coupled with the depression and anxiety was making me make poor food choices, was making me not follow through on medicine. So it was like a cycle, if you will. I turned 50 and 23, so right around that time, like my body started feeling a little bit better. I. And I started exercising more. That really helped me a lot.
But then my anxiety, like in the beginning of 24 was probably, that whole year was when it was just really, really bad. And so then I like, okay, I have a little more energy. I'm feeling a little bit stronger, but I still. Don't feel good. Like I still just am suffering. And that's when, honestly, I found this, I found an online place that specializes in women's health and perimenopause, and I'm like, they're gonna give me hormone replacement theory therapy.
And I just did it. It's, it's been a game changer. Like I have energy, I can regulate my emotions. I'm not like doomsday in my head all the time. I feel stable. I just feel more like myself, like what I felt like 10 years ago. And I think the other thing is that the last four to five years when you've been sick for a long time, you think that's your new normal.
You're like, okay, this is who I am. Something's wrong with me, but this is who I am. Like I like I'm lazy and I am just like, you just, women are so hard on ourselves. And then when you throw in. The depression, anxiety and fatigue on top of that, and you don't really understand why it, you end up blaming yourself.
HOST: That was Kavitha ness, along with Stephanie Shaw and Penny Lumley sharing their stories about the onset of anxiety during perimenopause, expert Ruth Devlin provided some tools on how to cope and find more peace during this life transition. When you're caught in a cycle of fatigue, anxiety, and depression with no clear answer as to where it came from, it can feel impossible to break out.
But as our guests have shared with small, determined steps, you can begin to reclaim the inner stability you once knew.
In part two of this Peace Talks radio program after the short break, correspondent Julia Bert explores how these symptoms affect our guests relationships and how partners, communities and workplaces can better support this transition more peacefully.
Stay tuned. More to come on Peace Talks Radio.
MUSIC BREAK
HOST: This is Peace Talks Radio, the radio series and podcast on peacemaking and nonviolent conflict resolution. I'm Jessica Ticktin in for series producer Paul Ingles. Today with correspondent Julia Joubert. This is part two of our program on finding peace in the sudden onset of anxiety During perimenopause, previously, we heard from Penny Lumley, Stephanie Shaw and Kavitha Ness with support from expert Ruth Devlin, who shared their internal experiences of chronic anxiety during perimenopause and what they had done to try to mitigate those symptoms themselves.
As we head into part two of this program, we explore the outer world and the ways in which the sudden onset of anxiety has affected their life, home, and work dynamics, and here ways that partners, communities, and workplaces can better support this transition more peacefully. We begin today with our guests sharing how their families and colleagues responded to the sudden change.
Here's Stephanie.
Stephanie: Within my own home, the only change became was a heightened concern because my children assumed that I was lying to them there. They thought there was something much worse going on because I'd lost so much weight and every afternoon I'd get off work and I'd sit on the couch until there was time to go to bed.
So there was a concern. There was no, oh, you shouldn't. What is wrong with you? It was more like, Hey, how can we help? Let's protect our mom and my wife kind of thing. So my husband, my kids and my mom were a huge support system to the point that this is one of the times that I wasn't fearful, but it made me a little more sad.
I remember my mom who was in her seventies, then I couldn't go in big box stores because like. The light would just, I don't know what it was doing to my brain. It was so weird. So that meant no grocery shopping. And my 70-year-old mom was taking me to the grocery store. I had to hold onto her. We were pushing carts to the aisle.
She was loading my groceries into the, to the car. So it was a, an interesting time.
Kavitha: I think there have been a lot of challenges within my house between my children and my husband, especially with my husband. He's a very good patient man. But you know, I think, you know, there were days I just couldn't get myself out of bed, and that affects your lifestyle.
And he was patient for a while, but I didn't understand it. So he didn't understand it and. There was tension there with my younger child who's 11 now. She also has a lot of emotions and she's has a hard time regulating. So that was more pronounced when I was going through my own anxious moments, and I definitely probably did not handle things well.
I. Would yell a lot and she would go into tears and slam doors in her room and throw stuff to animals and I would just then yell back and didn't act like the adult and um, would just then ignore her, which that's just not something you do with your children is ignore them or not talk to them. But I was, became very like a child myself, and I just, it was just too much in that it pushed me over the edge. I was already at my limit or I just wouldn't be like engaging. I kind of feel like they saw me in bed a lot and you know, I felt like we were hanging out more in our bed than anywhere else. And I just wonder like, I think there were times where like, oh, are you sleeping again? Mom, are you, are you in bed again, mom?
I remember them saying that and I would remember feeling so much shame about that. I think with my partner, I was very overreactive to him. Like any criticism or anything I felt was a criticism or not total happiness with me. I very much like overreact. We actually, over that period, had quite a few big fights.
And then he started educating himself better than me on menopause to try and understand me because he just noticed what a different person I was and, and there was nothing he really did. It was me just overreacting to specific things. So that was the one relationship.
JULIA: It was at work that Penny really felt anxiety affect her relationships the most.
Penny: At work often, just it's an insane situation. I'm in with like 10 children all wanting my attention and the pressure to actually like get through the work that has been set for them and that I need to do. And I'll have one pulling me on one side, one trying to crawl into my lap on the other side, another one going, panny, panny, panny.
And then I'll just, I'll just lose my. Kind of thing, and I'm like, get outta the classroom. So they all just go scampering and running. All of a sudden I just lose my temper normally. I'm just very good at quietly telling them, please go out. It's not your turn yet. So I have very major outbursts, which they think is highly amusing, but it's not very professional.
You know what, they all traumatized children. Yeah. And my biggest thing is read trauma. I really should not be traumatizing them more. So that's why it makes me very aware of myself and you know, that's why I decided to go on the hormones 'cause I just couldn't afford to let them drive me mad like that they know me, they know they can come straight back in and get a hug.
So they never really upset about it. I think just, you know, I've been with them for so long. But I, I don't like it within myself. It's that loss of control that's sudden snapping. And then of course my anxiety does go up after that because I'm like, oh, you're losing control. This is not on.
JULIA: Kavitha. And Stephanie both also noticed the impact of their symptoms on their work lives.
I think for the outside world, I think I've always been an anxious person, so I've known how to. Compensate. I think with work, I've been lucky in that I, I, I consult and I work from home, but I, I cut back some of my hours and I'm lucky to be in a situation financially to have that privilege, but I just couldn't handle it.
For me, the menopause, the anxiety and the fatigue was a really big thing for me. Just like getting up and getting the kids and doing like one client's work was just like. You know, I'd have two good days where I'd make dinner and get everything done, and then I'd have to nap the third day. And whether it was depression or anxiety, I just couldn't get through it.
So I definitely had to cut back on work and I felt like even the quality of my work wasn't as good because I was just sort of like, I need to get through this. I need to check market. I didn't have like. That passion for work.
Stephanie: There was only two board members. 'cause I, I was running an education nonprofit at the time.
There was only two board members that knew and both because I just trusted them as human beings. I'd known them for a long time and I wanted them to know I'm leaving every day at. Between two and three. That's because either I'm exhausted and or I have another doctor's appointment, but their opinion of me didn't change.
Like, because my work ethic didn't change. I couldn't like work an eight to five, but I could, you know, maybe work from seven to noon and then again from two to four, and so I could, I could break up the date. I had that flexibility because I was running the nonprofit. One time I went to an event and I was a speaker, and I, I just couldn't, I couldn't stand up.
Now that I think about it, I had an anxiety attack that day, but like if you looked at me, you wouldn't know. I was able to play it off like, Hey, do you wanna do this? I think this is a, the chance for you to shine, kind of thing. But. That day, my husband had dropped me off there because it was like a 20 minute drive.
I wasn't driving. I walked in that room and my heart was beating so fast and my body was so tight and tense.
JULIA: Menopause expert Ruth Devlin shares how perimenopausal anxiety will impact women's relationships differently depending on the sorts of relationships they have.
Ruth: Relationships are a tricky one because A, if they don't like the way that their body's behaving in the first place, or they're not coping with everyday life, they can start to withdraw themselves.
So that can have a massive impact on relationships. 'cause people will read that in very different ways, won't they? And it's perception of people's thoughts as to a how they're. How other people are behaving towards them. It all gets very, very confusing. So the more open you are with people, the easier it is, definitely.
But that's a huge stumbling block for some people because they just don't want to talk about how they're feeling. They're never going to express how they're feeling about. The individual personal health as well, but it can have a massive impact. I mean, just things like irritability, mood swings, feelings of anger and rage just within the home can have a massive impact on all your relationships with your children.
But then if that tips over into the workplace as well, that can have a big impact and then that's could start to impact on people's confidence. And self-awareness. All sorts of different things come into the mix there, but everybody has their own way of coping with these symptoms. But I think when it's having an impact within the home, you have to try and sit down and really just take time to talk to people.
JULIA: This is Peace Talks Radio, and I'm Julia Joubert. Today we are discussing anxiety and perimenopause. Joining us are Penny Lumley, Stephanie Shaw, Kavitha Ness and nurse and educator, Ruth Devlin, who share their stories and offer insights on how to recognize perimenopausal anxiety, open up lines of communication, and create more peaceful environments at home, at work, and beyond.
Ruth reminds us that when these symptoms begin to impact our relationships, honest conversations are essential because without them, everything can start to fall apart. So many women I've spoken to have looked back and felt shame or disappointment about how they acted during intense emotional moments and the confusion that comes with it.
I wanted to know from Ruth what advice she has for women trying to manage those feelings, especially in high stress environments where they feel like they're overreacting.
JULIA: Yeah. You've explained so well there, Julia,, just how so many people feel day in, day out, and I think the confusion for a lot of people as well.
I, I think just basically don't ignore all your symptoms, don't ignore how you're feeling. So many people will try and muscle on. They'll try and carry on with their busy lives within the workplace and at home. And don't take a step back and think, right, I need to do something about this. They don't have the space or the time, but they also largely, they don't know how to go about it.
They just think, right. It will hopefully get better. Just try and have a moment. Go and see somebody. Who can support you, whether you start off with talking to your friends or a colleague at work, whoever you feel most comfortable talking to or to carry on, just plowing through and struggling through a, you're not doing yourself any good, but that's affecting people around you as well.
Um, which isn't helpful for relationships on, on all levels. And I think then you can start to figure out your coping strategies. You can start to be thinking, right, what lifestyle factors do I need to take? Do I need to this extra support or medication? You know? But it's definitely sharing, just talking, simply talking to somebody and finding the right person to talk to, um, to get that output can be a good starting point.
JULIA: Interestingly, Stephanie has a podcast and is incredibly open about her experiences online, but reveals that her and her family have never actually spoken about the anxiety of it all. I think a lot of what they've learned about what I was really thinking, that time has come through me during these interviews because I will sit down, be on an interview, someone will be in the kitchen or just around and they'll hear it, or they'll listen to a podcast episode and be like, oh, I didn't know that kind of, kind of thing.
Kavitha: With my partner. I mean, honestly, I didn't even kind of put this together till now. I think part of all of this, I mean we started going to therapy, which has been wonderful, but we had not ever done that. And I think, um, I think I just didn't feel seen at all, and I felt like. My emotions were being gaslit, for lack of a better word.
And I felt very alone. And I just was like, this is not the way I want my partnership, my marriage to look like. And we were fighting a lot and being very mean to each other. And even now, it's funny, I've always just thought that was lack of communication, but I think I just felt like that perimenopause made everything so much more pronounced, the emotions and whether it was anger or the anxiety and then like not being able to communicate, like just the despair I was feeling. And you know, my husband is a wonderful man, but he is a white Midwestern man that was raised very differently than me and like, like is in touch with his emotions are not quite as in depth as mine.
And so that made us even further apart and it wasn't something I could explain. So I think like. Not that we talked about perimenopause in therapy, but I think it, it's been very good for us. And it's funny because I think we're in a really good space right now, and I think being on HRT and managing a lot of these symptoms has been really a big part of that, which is kind of crazy.
But it's, it's interesting 'cause I talk about it so much with my children now that, and I have two daughters that they sort of know they're, I'm like. You know, and my one daughter, my 13-year-old is having her period now, and I'm in the throes of perimenopause. And it is, and it can be tough in this house sometimes.
And both of us will go at it while her hormones, her puberty, and me on the other side of it. And I will have these conversations with her just like, just like how you get so moody that happens to mom too. And this is kind of the journey. So it's been good that way, but I know they think like. I'm crazy and I, I, you know, and whether they attribute it to like menopause or cycle, I know that they know that I'm going through some changes.
It's funny though, my younger one though, the other day, she says this all the time, she's like, mommy, I was having a hot flash in school. It just got so hot. And I know she's just hearing me say these words all the time. So the positive is that they'll grow up, you know, knowing more about this.
JULIA: As Ruth mentioned before, finding the language for your experience is difficult enough without the symptoms of anxiety compounding it.
So what language should women use to express themselves at this time?
Ruth: I think just simplifying it. Definitely simplifying it. Don't use all the medical terms, just make it more relatable and how it affects you in everyday life, which, which is more relatable as well. Everyone's got their different levels of, of how confident they are about speaking, uh, these topics.
So really hard to generalize, but it's, especially at home, you know, your, your family well and you know the capacity of. How much they can take on board. So little small amounts of information are really important, rather than overloading them with information. But as to whether the language I, I just think, just simplifies and just say, look, I am not feeling too good these days, but I'll explain to you why, if you're interested. It's just, you know, at this time of my life, my, my hormones are going all wonky. I know I'm being a bit crabby. I can get really irritable, but just bear with me because I'm going to get through this. And if you give people a light at the end of the tunnel, 'cause they might be thinking, God, this is a nightmare live with, how long is this gonna go on with her for.
You know, if you give her some, if you give people some sort of positivity as well to look forward to and just say, look, I'm not gonna be like this every day, but if we can work together, that would really help me as well.
JULIA: And now looking to family and partners, how can they help considering the impact these psychological and emotional symptoms are having on our closest support networks?
Penny suggests partners should begin by educating themselves.
Penny: Let them read up and let them.. There are groups for men as well out there for dealing with menopausal spouses. You know, you can, men can get the support they need because I often think our menopause confuses them a little bit more than it confuses us.
You know, if they can actually just understand. It's something that all women go through, and if they can understand what the woman is going through, they're going to be better equipped at dealing with it. And as I. Their coping techniques and mechanisms often will fall over into the relationship, so that helps with hindsight.
JULIA: Do you almost think that your relationship with your mother may have been different if as a teenager you understood what she was going through?
Penny: Yeah, I'm sure it would've been because yeah, everything she did, I took personally and everything I did, she took personally when, you know, it's just battling with hormones.
She's feeling irritable and whatever, but you know, sometimes I think until you go through something yourself, you never fully understand it.
JULIA: Kavitha reiterates that she'd like to see more from men.
Kavitha: Right now, we're just still at the point where we're educating women what we're going through in our bodies, but I still think there should be a movement of like how men can support their partners and for them to really understand this is so much harder than two deliveries, two pregnancies. I had two C-sections. I was older, like we went through a ton of fertility treatments. I didn't think I could become a mom one day. That was hard, but this feels so much harder.
JULIA: Wow.
Kavitha: To me at least. Yeah. Um, just because there's so much unknown and it's so hard to navigate and it doesn't feel like you have support versus those other things.
You can get support and you can kind of understand and there's a plan.
JULIA: Stephanie shares a story that she loves from her podcast “Hello, hot Flash”. The guest said that someone that she had interviewed, the husband and wife had gotten a divorce. The husband was required to go through some like menopause training at work or something like that, and he's like.
Oh, she wasn't crazy. It wasn't about me, and they ended up getting remarried. Now mind you, this wasn't like a six month situation. It was over a course of years, but how cool was it? Once he started to understand that there are actually chemical changes happening in your body that you can control? So. Take yourself out of it, step back, recognize what's going on with your spouse or your loved one, and then figure out how you can support her.
Once you do that, that also, I believe, is going to make the outbursts that she may be having a little less, that's going to change the entire environment. So having a a man or the person that's supporting that menopausal person really start to understand what's going on, I think is key. Then looking beyond immediate family for support, our guests suggest that to start, there needs to be more room for these conversations In educational and workspaces.
Everyone needs to be included, but there also needs to be, I. Spaces for conversations. You know, I'm in this world of menopause advocates and the conversation around menopause cafes within the workplace comes up quite a often, and I think that's really important. So the Menopause Cafe is not for the 35 to 60-year-old woman who would be perimenopausal.
It's for the entire team, but it's this. Quote unquote safe space where women can go get some education, have a conversation about it, so they aren't afraid of losing their job. They aren't afraid of how they will be treated. They aren't afraid of someone saying, Hey, she's menopausal. Ha ha ha, she's having a hot flash.
Ha ha ha. Because for me, I would've laughed it off 'cause whatever I am. But for a lot of women, that can be detrimental to them how they think about themselves, how they presenting themselves. I'm getting old, I'm not. As I used to be. So I think again, the, the, a safe space so women can have some conversations.
I think that's the number one thing that businesses can do, and HR needs to be part of the conversation so that people feel safe in the, the manner of being able to say, I can't present today because my stress level is super high and my hormones are all off kind of thing.
JULIA: This is Peace Talks Radio, and I'm Julia Joubert.
Today we are discussing anxiety and perimenopause. Joining us are Penny Lumley, Stephanie Shaw, Kavitha Ness, and Nurse and educator, Ruth Devlin.
Kavitha: In terms of support systems, it's so interesting. Over Christmas we were on a vacation and I ran into a friend I had worked with in my twenties. We hadn't seen each other in like 25 years.
It was her 50th birthday where she was celebrating and we were stars at our organization. We were like, career was really important. We were moving up and we had both left our. Big corporate jobs and had been struggling for the last year because of perimenopause. And she was like, I don't think I can even ever go back to work full-time because I've become such a mess.
And then we started having these conversations about like, what can we do to like impact this in the workforce, right? Because people don't understand it. Forget like. Having your period sucks enough, especially like I always worked in careers where it was male dominated and you don't talk about this stuff.
And so is there a way for organizations to affect, like job sharing or you know, more flexible schedules And I think there's a lot to do because these are women in your like mid forties to mid fifties. That are people you don't wanna lose. They have all the institutional knowledge. They are leaders, they are bosses and you don't wanna lose them.
And I think you see a lot of women scaling back and there'll be thoughts about like, oh, you know what's priorities. But I think perimenopause or menopause is a lot of that. And I think if workplaces can like find ways to be flexible at that time. You don't have to lose these individuals who I think are a big contributor to, to the workforce. Because I know so many people my age that have left their big, big jobs because of the pressure, 'cause they couldn't handle it 'cause of the stage of life they're in and trying a different career. And I don't think that needs to happen.
JULIA: Ruth Devlin mirrors a lot of what our guests have said. Supporting someone through perimenopause isn't just about understanding the symptoms, it's about presence, patience, and communication. And she says the starting point is simple.
Ruth: Be there for them. Definitely accept them as they are. Be kind and compassionate goes without saying. If you are a partner, regardless of gender and somebody's going through this transitional stage, if you can do things like accompany them to doctor's appointments, that can be really supportive.
'cause a lot of time you'll go, you will have a clue what you've re to remember what to say when you get there. And then when you come outta the appointment, you maybe not ask them half of what you wanted to say. And you maybe not listen to what they've said either. So just that sort of support is really important.
And just to, just to be able to talk through things with people is great. And just getting that additional support.
JULIA: Mm-hmm. I'm intrigued by this because I think we, you know, we're all human beings and to be in a relationship with somebody and this person from, you know, my own experience with other family members, they become a completely different person.
Sometimes, and it's so difficult to navigate that as the other person on the other side. I'm upset that you are treating me differently. I'm confused. How do you advise me to. We said armed with information, and of course now that I'm armed with this information, I would've maybe handled things differently.
What in those, in those moments, what advice do you have for both parties who are stuck in this? Like, things are confusing and I'm angry with you. What do I do?
Ruth: It has to be something that you work through together, but I think the, the more you talk about it differently, but finding different ways of communicating.
So some people find it really helpful to journal. Some people can draw mind maps as to how they're feeling, and then if they can try and then use that to communicate with somebody else, then that can be really helpful. But we all work in so different ways, don't we? You just have to find the right moments sometimes.
It's no quite scaring somebody, basically somebody who you care about or say. I mean, the, some of the hardest people are your teenage children. 'cause maybe they're going through quite a lot themselves and they're not really a, they don't really want to know. They just want you to top up and be mom and dad, don't they?
Let's face it, they don't. They want you to be there. They want you to be consistent. So I think little tiny. Tiny moments of just nudging people, sowing the seed, just saying, you know, I'm just not quite feeling quite right. This is why I'm not not feeling quite right, just so I'd let you know and then move on.
JULIA: Ruth also reiterates that workplaces can and should provide safe spaces to explore these conversations. Lots of different organizations are doing fabulous jobs out there. So the, I think the key is to have some sort of kickstart event so that you're providing information on the topic to start with 'cause you can't possibly support people unless you know what you're talking about to start with. Definitely get all managers on board and make the care and support consistent throughout an organization is really, really important. Do you maybe we've gone to get people volunteering with your organization who will.
Be the first protocol for people to go and chat to. So they might be not be comfortable going and speaking to the managers, but, but they might be comfortable going and speaking to a colleague who has been assigned the role of, you know, you could call them a menopause champion. You whatever you, whatever name you want to put to it, but somebody who you know, is going to be sympathetic and empathetic to what you are, you're, you're experiencing.
But it's getting that variety of formats for people to be able to access is, is really, really important. But yeah, lots of different ways. That people can access information. Yeah. And provide support.
JULIA: As we wrap our guests, share reminders that anxiety during menopause needs to be spoken about. And it isn't just a personal journey. It is one that echoes outwards.
Kavitha: I didn't know it made you feel like a crazy person. Like I never knew. Nobody talks about that. And now when I have these conversations with people and you hear it in the media more, I was like, wow, I wish more people talked about the anxiety part of this. I. Now I think of it as an awesome time, and I tell a lot of women that once you master what's going on in your body, it becomes a great time. I think of it as, uh, very freeing.
JULIA: As our incredible guests have shown throughout this program, we don't exist in isolation. Your stress, your perimenopause, your anxiety, it has an impact on the world around you, and so does your healing.
HOST: Perimenopause is not just a hormonal transition. It's a deeply personal journey that can stir unexpected, emotional and physical shifts as we've learned through our guests today. Anxiety during this time isn't uncommon, but understanding its roots and communicating during this time is essential to empower more compassionate care and connection.
Simple, everyday tools can help ease the intensity and bring a sense of calm. Through the uncertainty of change and allow women to thrive at home, at work, and within their communities in this new phase of life. To find photos of Stephanie, Penny, Kavita and Ruth, go to peace talks radio.com and that's where you can go to hear all our programs in our series dating back to 2002.
You can read and share transcripts and sign up for our podcast. You can also make a donation to keep this program going into the future. all@peacetalksradio.com. Support comes from listeners like you. Also, the McCune Charitable Foundation and the Albuquerque Community Foundation ties fund support too from KUNM at the University of New Mexico. Nola Daves Moses is our executive director, Ali Alman, composed and performs our theme music for Julia Joubert. I'm Jessica Ticktin in for series producer Paul Ingles. Thanks so much for listening to and for supporting Peace Talks Radio.
