Basketball For Peace Transcript
Host: When you walk into a gym filled with bouncing basketballs, what do you see? Could it be more than a game? What if you knew that this was the first time children from rival communities were playing together?
(Clip)
If I can get on with you enough to play on a team and. Trust you to be able to work with me.
Surely we should be able to live in that society or the world together. In Northern Ireland, basketball is serving as neutral ground for communities with historical divisions.
Host: And in Oakland, California, among many cities across the us midnight basketball is keeping kids off the streets.
(Clip)
People who know our community will chip in so we can pay kids.
So we can bring outside kids who are not interested in basketball, but need to be somewhere productive on a Friday. We have all of that going on.
Host: How basketball is being used to reduce violence and bring people together today on Peace Talks Radio.
This is Peace Talks Radio, the radio series and podcast on peacemaking and nonviolent conflict resolution. I'm Jessica Ticktin today with Correspondent Andrew Stelzer. Whether it's a pickup game in a city park or a championship matchup watched around the world, sports have always given people a way to test their skills and to find common ground.
A court or a field can become neutral territory where teamwork matters more than where you're from. Today we'll explore two programs that use basketball, not to fuel rivalry, but to build relationships. In part two of this episode, we'll hear about Midnight basketball, an idea born in the 1980s that offers young people a safe place to play and to dream where the streets outside might not be so peaceful.
But first in Part one, we go to Northern Ireland to learn about an organization called Peace Players, which brings together Protestant and Catholic youth who might otherwise never have the opportunity to meet peace players as programs around the world, including the Middle East, South Africa, and the United States.
The idea is to bring together young people from communities with longstanding conflicts or deep inequality. We're gonna meet two people from Belfast, who started as participants, later became coaches, and now are staff at peace players. Mark Wilmot grew up in a Protestant family.
I started Peace Players as a participant when I was eight years old.
I started assistant coaching at the age of 16. I turned a coach when I was 18,
Host: and Patrice Fox is from the Irish Catholic community.
I think I was like 10 maybe when I started, was a participant like Mark and then. Went on to be an assistant coach at 16, a coach at 18.
Host: Basketball has taken Patrice and Mark out of their cultural bubbles, out of their neighborhoods, and even out of the country.
It changed their lives and their perspectives on whether peace is possible. Here's Andrew Stelzer interviewing Patrice Fox and Mark Wilmot.
Marc Wilmot: The shekel road is where I grew up in. I'm from a predominantly Protestant and unionist area. The context of that in Northern Ireland is that the divide between communities is Protestant, Catholic, or Republican.
And unionist. I grew up in a heavily predominantly unionist area. Didn't really have an idea that there was another community. Really, I was only just comfortable with my own community and like the area I live in is, it's a low income area. I think Belfast, and particularly North Belfast in general where I'm from, there's a lot of problems to do with mental health and stuff like that There.
Fortunately, I was a part of a lot of programs when I was younger. I was quite naive to the things that were going on in my neighborhood, like the history of Northern Ireland and you know, was protected by my family and my parents. But that's the area that I came up in, not having a lot of material wealth or anything like that, that there for me, you know, my wealth was through the organizations that I was a part of as a kid.
Patrice Fox: Yeah, I'm very similar. I grew up in and still live in Bella Murphy, which is like the heart of West Belfast and very Irish Catholic Republican in their stances for a lot of things. Not quite like Mark though. I was very aware of the troubles in the history. It affected my family a lot. The Bala Murphy massacre and stuff.
One of my grandparents was killed during that. So it definitely had a big impact on me growing up. My perceptions of the other side.
Marc: Just, sorry, just on what Patrice was saying as well, like we come from two areas that have two different belief systems, but like generally a lot of the lifestyle is the same.
Like it's two areas where Yeah, there's, you know, there's not a lot of income and a lot of problems are the same based on the history of Northern Ireland, that just generally where we live. So there is a lot of parallels, but based on the history, the ideology, it's very different and there still is a divide.
Andrew Stelzer: Mark, you talked about this briefly, but to either of you. What was your level or means of exposure to, as Patrice said, the other side, did you see people on the street? Were you mainly hearing stories from your family? What were you seeing on television? What was the real world exposure before you got into programs of people who were not of the same?
I guess we call it religious group, although it's not religious in the way we might think of it. What was your exposure to the other side? What kind of messages were you getting? How were you getting those messages? As a young child.
Marc: I was fortunate enough to not grow up in that, and I think that had a positive impact on my experience as a youth.
It's kind of two separate cultures in one place, so the two religious backgrounds, as we say, we went, say denominations. It's the background in which the history of those religious denominations are. So I come, I like, I myself I'm not Protestant in the religious sense, but I am from a, a Protestant background.
For me, it starts with, you know, the ideas that come from that first part of socialization. So things you hear from your parents, from your family, things you hear from your inner community. And in hindsight there was a lot of bias there. And then through the program with peace players, that's when you realize that there is another.
Perspective. And so I would say from, you know, a very young age all the way up until the primary school, elementary school, like the very end of that, the tail end of that is when, that was my first introduction into some of the I other ideas and the wider perspective.
Patrice: For me it was, I went to an all girls Catholic primary and secondary school, so like elementary, middle, high school, like all of my schooling was all girls and Catholic.
I didn't really meet anybody from the other side in person, at least not consciously until after I had started doing all the peace players programs. A lot of what I heard and seen and knew, I guess you would say, was from. Like Mark said, stories about what your family might have been through before or murals on the street depicting one side better than the other, or around the 12th of July here there's always, um, bonfires and stuff, and they're like, normally the Protestant background will have those bonfires.
So then for us on the 12th of July, it's like, oh, they're doing all of this and it's bad for the environment. It just painted them in a very bad light.
Andrew: So then you got linked up with peace players. How did that happen? Were there a bunch of programs trying to bring people together and you just liked basketball?
So this is the one you chose? Or did you just wanna play basketball and you didn't know who was gonna be there when you showed up? How did you end up in this program and what was the initial first few weeks and months like?
Patrice: I was at like an afterschool program and Siobahn Fitzpatrick, one of our staff members was a volunteer there, and she was like running basketball sessions and stuff.
So then she invited me to join her under twelves team, I think it was. And so like when I got involved, I just went purely because. This leader that I looked up to thought that I'd be good at it, and I just went to appease her and see what it was about. And it was purely basketball and then making friends on that team.
And it was a mixed team, and I had. No idea. And finding out that there was these other programs that peace players were running where you did maybe delve into those conversations about stereotypes or discrimination or prejudice and things like that. I was like, well, all my friends from the basketball team do these programs, so.
I wanna go and spend more time with them. And I think that's where I really started like thinking about it more and actually realizing that, oh, okay, maybe I do know a couple of Protestant people and maybe I shouldn't be saying what I'm saying because I wouldn't say it to their face.
Andrew: And when you realized that, a was your family okay with it? Were there members in your family or your community who were like, you shouldn't be in that league, or that's,
Patrice: Yes. My parents have always been really supportive and think that it's like a great thing that peace players try to bring people together. But my grandparents still very much lived in the past and like their own trauma and preconceived ideas of everything, so.
They were like, no, not allowed. You're not mixing with them. You're not playing this. So it definitely took a while for them to come around and get used to it, but now they're on board with it. Now after like me talking about it, my family talking about it, they love it. They think it's a great thing too.
Andrew: I am speaking with Patrice Fox and Mark Wilmut from Peace Players.
And Marc I understand you were part of something called twinning, and also I've read you didn't play basketball at all when you got started. How did you stumble into this?
Marc: Yeah, I had zero interest in basketball. I wasn't really aware that it was a sport, to be honest. And then the Twin program is where peace players brings together two schools to elementary schools, to primary schools together from different backgrounds. So a Protestant maintained school and in a Catholic controlled school, and we bring them together and we do good relations, community relations through basketball and doing stuff that makes people work together. At the start, we would be in a big circle and we'd have what's called a peace player circle.
That's just where it's. One people from one school and then another people from the other school. And so it's a mixed match of the different schools. And you'll be split into teams and you will go through challenges and you'll go through games and topics together. We'll talk about things like symbols in our community.
So a big thing is flags in our community, you know, that have connotations and certain ideas. Talk about, well, what does this flag mean and what is the context behind that? And when you see this flag, how do you feel? And we kinda unpack that and it's a judgment free soon. And the idea is to kinda celebrate the similarities as well as the differences going.
We come from two different backgrounds, but really we have a lot in common, whether that's the same sports we like, and basketball is a great sport in the context of Northern Ireland because it's not a big sport over here, and it's grown massively since I have taken part in the program. But there's sports with certain religious backgrounds. For example, Gaelic and Harling, those are predominantly Catholic sports, and football is soccer. It's kind of for everyone. You also have rugby, which might be a predominantly Protestant sport, basketball. In the context of Northern Ireland, it's judgment free and there's no history behind it.
And I, I think that's why it was established in Northern Ireland. I know that it was established by two brothers who coached basketball and they thought this is a great tool to unite communities. And then they ended up doing that as well and post apartheid South Africa as well. And so. The idea at the time, and it still is now, is the children who can learn to play together, can learn to live together, and that's all it really was.
It was just having a bit of fun, as we call it, over here, having a bit of crack, and it was just about having a good time amongst people and finding out similarities, finding out differences, finding out different perspectives. That's what that program did for me is humanized people who I had never met before that I might have held certain ideas about.
I can tell how that has changed me as a person and maybe where I would've been without the program.
Patrice: Yeah, I definitely agree. I think kids are very innocent, especially in those twin programs. They don't necessarily understand why they have those views or why saying something could be. Disrespectful to someone from the other school or a different community.
So being able to have them play together on those mixed teams and then when those good relations conversations come up and be like, but so and so is a Catholic, and you just said that all Catholics are bad, like he's your best friend at this program. It definitely does. I think what Marc said, humanize them.
And to realizing that, okay, maybe this view isn't right and I need to rethink it a little bit.
Marc: Kids are sponges as well, right? They might not understand why they hold a certain idea or a certain thought about someone, or a stereotype or discriminate against someone. Over here, we have what's called legacy issues.
You know, it's the idea that, so me and Patrice post a Good Friday agreement, children, the Good Friday agreement is an agreement that happened in 1998 in Northern Ireland to bring back stability in the region. And it brought back self-government through par sharing and demilitarization, de -paramilitarization and disarmament.
And we have what's called legacy issues, which is, you know, the legacy that, the impact that the troubles has had and how that affects us. 'cause we. Weren't directly a part of the troubles, but there's things that still affect us, and that is stuff that we talk about here, like ideas, beliefs, stereotypes, discrimination, all of those things.
And so through the program is when you learn, oh, actually I have a lot in common with these people.
Andrew: You're listening to Peace Talks Radio. I'm Andrew Stelzer, and I'm speaking with Patrice Fox and Mark Wilmot. They both were youth participants with peace players in Belfast, Northern Ireland. They later became coaches and now work for the organization, which also has programs in South Africa, the Middle East, and the United States.
Now, back to our conversation.
Both of you got involved before you were a teenager. I'm gonna throw up the stereotype that teenagers are cynical and I imagine them, especially if they just first, you know, walk in 13, 14, I just want to play basketball. I don't want to talk about this stuff. This stuff is stupid.
We don't need to talk about it. Do you get any of that? Is it important to get kids involved at a younger age, what have you learned, especially as you've transitioned into coaching?
Patrice: I think we definitely get that, especially from some of those boys that are that age, that are like, no, I just wanna play basketball.
Leave me alone. But even having that tool of them playing on their mixed teams. That like teenage boys may say or do something that is a little bit discriminatory or a stereotype where they don't wanna play with the girls or pass the girls the ball. But even having those mixed teams and then being able to use the tool of basketball to have conversations about that, yes, it might not go the whole way back to the legacy issues that we have here or those talking about the other side, but if you start get them to think about, okay, I shouldn't be discriminatory against someone because of their gender. They will automatically, hopefully anyway, start to realize that they shouldn't do that with their race or their religion. It genuinely does bleed into other aspects of their life.
Marc: Just to add on that as well, I think that. The step that we took in mixing those teams.
Like that's not something that we just did straight away. We debated it particularly in the context of sport and a sport that is physical, that step. And I think I, when I grew up, I never really had a chance to really integrate, especially in sports with girls. And I think that it's actually really important because it just even teaches kids and teenagers, how to socialize with each other as well, like having conversations. And again, I never had the ability to do that in any of the programs I did when I was younger. And I can see the change that it's made in our participants as a coach and as a staff member. Kids don't really care about talking about the issues or divide unless they, you know, they're part of a debate team or something like that there. The structure of our sessions and our programs, you know, we call 'em games with aims, like the idea that. We are presenting sport as the tool or a certain game or a topic, and we'll play the game with them. And then at the end, that game will have incorporated a rule or a certain thing that at the end we go, well, did you realize that this thing happened?
And then the penny drop moment, or the mic drop moment where they go, oh, I just thought that was a game. And then at the end, after then you get to the debriefed and they start talking to us about why we did the game. And you go, oh my goodness. Like there's so much more to this.
Andrew: You've been able to go to other parts of the world with peace players.
Could you talk a little bit about that, just what you did and also how that gave you perspective on conflict, on peace and on what role the basketball could play?
Marc: Yeah, those trips are magical for so many reasons. Firstly, as a child who comes from a poverty stricken area, to get those opportunities to go abroad is life changing, and I had the opportunity to go to the Middle East in 2019 and South Africa in 2024, the first time as a participant, the second time as a coach.
For my first trip, like meeting everyone from all the different countries in which we work was fascinating. When you kind of realize that you're actually a part of a global movement, and I have like friends from those, from Cyprus, from the Middle East, from America, from Norway, from South Africa that I'm still friends with, and I think it definitely changed or developed my idea of conflict and of peace.
There's a lot of parallels in conflict all around the world. There's a lot of similarities and there's, of course, there's always differences in different conflicts, but again, we have those conversations and we have those games and topics and debates, but the general consensus is the same, is that how do we work to achieve peace and high is basketball and sport, the tool in which we use to get to that, and how do we use it to get a better understanding of empathy.
Sport, it makes it easier because you're doing the same thing and you just might be in a mixed team and you therefore have a better understanding because you're not a part of a team in a different sense. You're making your own community. The first few days are always getting to know each other, and I can say by the last day, I mean people are teary-eyed because they have to go the relationships that you make over a week or 10 days if you're lucky.
Or magical. And it's because it's this place of optimism and hope and understanding and empathy and it's just, it's such a great place to be around and I think it made my understanding of peace better in the context of Northern Ireland as well. Getting the understand different perspectives from all places all around the world, kinda like a, a combined struggle like that.
We all have the same problems in a sense, and so that therefore makes us come together to. Create change and positive change and pace and everywhere, all over the world that we work.
Andrew: Patrice, I don't know if you've been overseas at all with the program and have thoughts to share.
Patrice: I was, uh, I went to Cyprus in 2018, I think it was.
I got so close to people from Northern Ireland, like from peace players programs. I got so close to people from all of the other sites and countries and I think like. The one thing it showed me is like there's people of different race religion backgrounds. They speak different languages, but that tool of basketball, it brought us all together every single day of that trip. Like, yes, maybe there might have been a language barrier for some people, but we all knew how to play basketball. We were all able to work on a team together. So it definitely helped reinforce that idea for me, I think.
Andrew: I'm speaking with. Mark Wilmott and Patrice Fox from peace players. I play basketball, but I am sure some of our listeners do not, some of them might not know the rules. Is there anything you think about the sport, about the way play works that makes it conducive to some of the things we've talked about in terms of building empathy? Do you think this could work with another sport? What is it about basketball that might work well for making peace?
Patrice: Basketball's a team sport, but there's only five people on the court at any one time. So you really need to be able to work with them people. You need to be able to make those passes. You need to be able to trust them to take a shot if they're open for it. To ensure that you get that goal of winning. I think any sport is good for building those teams and that sense of community, but especially I think for Northern Ireland, like Mark said, so many other sports have different connotations or backgrounds linked to them.
So for us, basketball's amazing because anybody can play it and you don't need to have the best equipment in the world. You can go out and you can play with people on the street or a local park, like we do some outreach work like that where we'll go to parks and we'll just have a couple basketballs and see if any of the young people are interested in playing.
So I think it definitely allows for more of those like organic opportunities of people being able to come together in their communities and cities and stuff like that.
Marc: Yeah, there's a few core elements as to why sport is such a great tool to bring people together and why it works in the context that we work in, and also why basketball is such a great tool for that basketball.
It promotes diversity in itself because. Not every player can be the same. You need a point guard. You need your guard. You need your forwards. You need your big men, your small men and women. You have to work together for a common goal. Together, everyone achieves more.
Andrew: How different is Northern Ireland today from when you were growing up in terms of the divisions between communities, is a program like this still as important?
Will it still be important in 10 years, or will things be just fine sometime soon?
Patrice: I think for me there is definitely a difference. The arguments that take place now between the two communities aren't necessarily always about our religion or our beliefs or what area you come from. Like we have noticed a lot of trouble recently with immigrants and migrants and refugees, and a lot of people are out protesting or like there was riots a couple of weeks ago and one of the areas where one of the programs that I coordinate is held. And for me, like that was scary. I was like, there is a riot here. It's been going on for a couple of days. We're meant to have a program on a Tuesday night. Like do we go ahead with it? And all of the safety that we had to think about then.
But it was also like, no, we need this program to continue on a Tuesday night because yes, there might be people 10 minutes away rioting but we're, but we're showing that we can bring these kids together and that they wanna be here. The older generations might still be fighting, but it's those younger generations that can start to then make that difference in their communities and families.
We can't turn our backs on them either. Like we, there is still a lot of work to be done.
Marc: I would argue that it's more necessary than ever, and there's always going to be conflict because conflict is something that's so natural. Disagreements are so natural. I have had sessions where kids don't have an understanding of the history of Northern Ireland, and if I ask them what their nationality is, they don't understand why some people identify as British. Some people identify as Irish, some people identify as Northern Irish, and then I'll go to another area. We're not allowed to take photos and celebrate those sessions because we're afraid of what the community might say about kids in that area, taking part in a cross community session.
So it depends where you go and it depends who you're with, but especially with, as Patrice said, like the newcomer population. People from the two main communities in Northern Ireland are being united by hate. Which is crazy. And so that's why I find our work so important, and it's changing now to where it was historic peace players for when me and Patrice were growing up, was to really bridge that historical divide between Protestants and Catholics, Unionists and Republicans, green and oranges, whatever way you wanna label it.
Now we're seeing it as a general thing of we want to bring all communities together. All different cultures together and celebrate and promote the similarities within those communities, the differences within those communities. And so, yes, it's evolving into something different, but the idea of promoting peace and learning how to be with each other in a community is always going to be relevant, I believe.
And that's why I'm so proud to be a part of an organization that constantly helps that idea of promoting peace.
Host: That was correspondent Andrew Stelzer speaking with Marc Wilmott and Patrice Fox. They both work with peace players, an organization that uses sport to overcome differences in communities affected by conflict and inequity. You can learn more about that work on their website and will link to it at Peace Talks Radio dot.
And if you'd like to help keep these stories of peace and dialogue on the air, there's a donate button waiting for you. It's a simple way to become a peace leader by supporting the nonprofit work we do here at Peace Talks Radio. Coming up after the break, how Midnight Basketball Brings Youth together to make communities safer.
Stay with us for correspondent Andrew Stelzer. I'm Jessica Ticktin. Thanks for listening and for supporting Peace Talks Radio.
(Music Break)
You are listening to Peace Talks Radio, the radio series and podcast on peacemaking and nonviolent conflict resolution. I'm Jessica Ticktin today with correspondent Andrew Stelzer. This is the second half of a two-part program about how basketball is being used as a violence reduction tool. This time on Peace Talks radio, Andrew speaks with Kevin Grant, workshop coordinator for the midnight basketball program in Oakland, California.
(Clip)
We didn't stop shooting a, so our goal is to stop shooting B or C that might be connected to A.
Host: Midnight basketball was invented in 1985 in Glen Art in Maryland. The town manager wanted to get kids off the increasingly violent streets. After dark, he decided to open up the local rec center gym and organized a late night basketball league.
The idea caught on and within the next decade had spread to dozens of cities across the United States. Despite the name Midnight Basketball, it doesn't always run until past 12:00 AM and usually includes more than just basketball. Often there are lessons and workshops before the games, and in some towns, midnight basketball brings together young men from warring neighborhoods or gang territories in a safe space where they can get to know each other and just play together.
It's about building relationships and community between the young men. It's mostly boys and men and adult coaches and participants. Kevin Grant is workshop coordinator for midnight basketball, but that's only one piece of his work with Oakland's Department of Violence Prevention. His goal is to get to know the young people of Oakland so well that when there's a shooting or killing, his team can quickly connect with both the victims and perpetrators and prevent retaliation stopping the cycle of violence before it gets worse.
Producer Andrew Stelzer talked to Grant about how the midnight basketball program has evolved over the years and how it fits into his larger vision of community safety.
Andrew: Oakland's Midnight Basketball League started back in 1993. Kevin Grant got involved as a guest speaker during the program's. First few years, he was still a young man, but as he explained to me in our interview, he had already spent time in the streets. Paid the price and was beginning to turn his life around as a child.
He experienced the good old days before gun violence and yearns for Oakland youth to have that same feeling of safety and community.
Kevin Grant: I, um, grew up in Oakland from the streets of Oakland. Started, you know, just personally not proud of it, but getting into trouble at an early age and in and out of systems.
From Juvenile Hall Youth Authority Federal Prison, I was blessed to have a healthy foundation from a great family and was able to find my center, find my balance, and um, through even all of the. Problems I created for myself. I still had the design and the heart to help and be as of assistance of in service of others.
And so, um, found my way back to that and, um, without all the problems of, uh, you know, behavioral issues that I had come to, um, be involved with.
Andrew: When you were a kid, when you were growing up, what was your neighborhood like and what was the city like for yourself and for other kids like you in terms of your generation and whatever socioeconomic situation your family in?
What was it like?
Kevin: Well, we grew up in a neighborhood flatland community, what we call it today, areas where many people of color are, you know, packaged in with, you know, not a lot of resources, not a lot of wealth, especially generational wealth and, you know, a bunch of kids and parents. It wasn't, um, like it was today with a lot of killings.
It was a lot of fighting and what have you, and, uh. You know, just a, a regular, um, minority, uh, field neighborhood, but it was mostly really a packaged neighborhood. I just wanna say where the neighborhood cared for each other. You know, the neighborhood looked out for each other at that time. And I'm speaking way back in the sixties when a community was the village. You know, we had local fights, you know, like little things, same things to do today, disagreements. Somebody took something or disrespected you, but we would fight and lose and win and it'd be okay. We weren't, you know, killing each other. Like today we speak on annihilation anxiety, that that has now led to where we are now, where those things don't exist anymore. And a lot of neighbors are not encouraged or feeling, um, brave enough to be imported into their own neighborhoods.
But I was blessed, Andrew, honestly, to grow up in a neighborhood. Um, again, that was predominantly black, but everybody looked out for each other.
The parents of each kid in that neighborhood was the parents of each kid, you know, so it was a great neighborhood at that time.
Andrew: And what role did sports play for you and your peers, particularly basketball, but what was the role of sports in the community and in your life?
Kevin: Well, in our community, we were outdoor kids. We were heavy in the sports in our neighborhood. My favorite ones were track. Me and my brother were very fast. Football, baseball, little basketball, you know, and it was just a common thing for kids to migrate to the. Corner, uh, schools, the corner parks that had a basketball court or a field that we could play football.
If not, we'd run up and down the streets. You know, Mr. Washington's car was a touchdown and so was Mr. Smith's car. This Mr. Jones car was first down and so forth. Running bases and sports was a very integral part of all of the flatland communities, as I recall in Oakland growing up as a kid.
Andrew: One of the roles you play in the city of Oakland or have played over the years is something called a violence interrupter. Could you just talk a little bit about that work?
Kevin: For sure, for sure. So we are a team of individuals who are from flat land communities. We have what we call earned credibility. People know us from our past and have seen us redirect our lives. And so we have agency, we call it the three, accept We. When we arrive on the scene, we're accepted, expected, and respected, how that happens.
We are trained OPD. While they're doing their job, let's say it's a homicide scene, our team through the City of Oakland, department of Violence Prevention will arrive at that scene, mostly people who are from that area who are hired, and they will work with the family to help the family go through the stressors of their loved one being shot.
Our goal is to work with the individual, the family, and the communities to rebuild some trust, some love, and then we get a chance to hold the family's hand and oftentimes the community's hand as they go through these over, you know, just we're over. Exposed. The communities are the same communities, oftentimes the families who are overexposed to violence.
So through the lens of the Department of Violence Prevention, we call it a working partnership, a working understanding what we have with OPD. What that means is they'll. Call us out to a scene and never ask us what we discussed. They call us out to the scene to hug, embrace, and work with the families on the resources and in helping them through victims of crime, helping them through us solving mediation, calling to mediation, which is.
Okay. If there was someone shot, there had to be a shooter. So our teams, one of the things we structure our work behind is the retaliation. You know, our, the resolving of homicides and shootings in most flatland communities is pretty low. And so we get a chance to come in there and try to step in the middle of retaliation because.
Unfortunately we didn't stop shooting A, so our goal is to stop shooting B or C. That might be connected to a, the challenge is, is oftentimes there is a lot of blood under the bridge, but we work on the retaliation and we, what we call, we slow dance. We work with the families because we know during the anniversary of the shooting, energy comes back up.
And if you can imagine that I'm your son, I'm 16 years old, I got killed. Everybody in your family knows who killed me, but they can't bring charges. So, you know, and then you have two other sons my age, my brothers, and so these are kind of the dynamics. So it's not just, you know, oftentimes we demonize that energy, but you know, it is a lot behind it.
It's not just a simple story, you know, it's just a lot of dynamics behind it, and we get a chance to go in. With relevance, with mouthpiece, with understanding, with empathy, and try to slow things down while other entities do their job, and we try to bring cooler heads to the table.
Andrew: We are talking to Kevin Grant, who works with midnight basketball in Oakland among many other community programs. You've mentioned the term flatland several times. I lived in Oakland, so I know what that means. But for people who aren't from the town, what are the flatlands, what does that mean? And you've referred to it as a place that exists outside of Oakland. I suppose that's, is that metaphorically or uh, is that term exist elsewhere?
Kevin: So, Andrew, flatland from people from the town in communities like Oakland, Richmond, there's neighborhoods that up. What generally up in the hills or you know, where people who are more well to do live flatlands is people who live in the flatland areas and I think it's called zone F, where it's more smoke stacks.
The train goes by Bart, all in industrial stuff. And where generally people of color due to low cost housing, you know that they have to rent. And people buying up bulk houses where if you go through a community, you'll find us.
Andrew: So where were you and who were you when you first heard about midnight basketball?
Kevin: That's a beautiful question. I was working at this halfway house in Oakland. Working there, helping, uh, young men out of custody and reentry programs get employment. Um, I had just got out of federal prison and they thought I had the skillset to do that, so I became a mouthpiece for helping people, young men and women getting outta prison to find employment.
So back in the day, this was no apps or nothing like that. It was knocking on doors, going cold calling. And so I was able to use my gift of gab to talk to employers and then also talk to the loved ones who were trying to get jobs and bring those two together. Um, so then, uh, this, um, young lady who worked for the city of Oakland, uh, came to one of my workshops and heard me speak and then asked could I be a speaker at their midnight basketball league.
I believe this was in 94, 95. And so, um. Went to midnight basketball, met a bunch of young men. Generally it was 50 to 70 men in the arena at that time. Got a chance to speak to 'em and then, um, pretty much since then became the keynote speaker. And, um, that has evolved from that time to now being the speaking coordinator and bringing.
Other voices to the table and resources to help these young men stay on the path and then, uh, build mentorship and resources.
Andrew: When you first heard about it, and maybe when you first showed up, or even before you walked in the gym the first time, what did you think about the idea? Were you skeptical or right away? Did you think this is a great idea? Did it make sense to you? What were your thoughts?
Kevin: That's a good question. I had heard about it and I'm like this, to be honest, there's a belief that I have and a lot of my, even though I'm not a Bible thumper, a lot of my upbringing was that it says the harvest is great, but the workers are few.
I believe in communities like Oakland that. Everything should be put to task. You know, some people will find support through basketball, others through football, others through music, and so I believe in any product that brings the audience there together with resources and something different. So when I first walked in, Andrew, what was interesting, I knew a few of the kids from my different workshops.
The challenging was they have a theme. It's called No Workshop, no Jump Shot. So the kids know the young loved ones know that they have to sit in the workshop prior to joining the plane. They sign in, they come into workshop, they have to sign out of the workshop. This was back in the day, and if they were late, then they wouldn't play that game.
So you can imagine 50 kids. Anxious to get on that floor. So if you ain't up there, up to par saying if you don't have what it takes. They will let you know that they want you out the way. I love those challenges. I speak from my heart, I speak from my lived experience, I speak from love. It all came together.
And then when you got a bunch of young men who come up to you and thank you and remember 'cause then at the We review each following week and then they remember what you said or come up and thank you for something you said or ask you for a number of. Person you talked about then, you know, your teaching was reaching.
So I would always pick a topic in relation to if something happened within the community, if something happened to one of the kids, or we kept all of our topics relational to the loved ones and events. And then had resources and relevant mentors and different packages for the kids to dive into. When I bring a speaker there and the kids say they don't want that speaker back, that speaker won't come back.
And OPD has blessed us to let us choose the officers that the kids, and you can imagine the gift of that having a community that has not really in love with their law enforce. Entities and we have probation and officers from OPD, Oakland Police Department there shaking kids hands. A lot of these officers play basketball themselves.
So we have a lot of little side things that are happening, Andrew, that help kind of feel a community trying to bring that village back in. Its totality.
Andrew: This is Peace Talks Radio. I'm Andrew Stelzer and I'm speaking with Kevin Grant with the Department of Violence Prevention for the city of Oakland, California.
He's also the workshop coordinator for the City's Midnight Basketball program. Back to our conversation.
You mentioned police, and I know as you alluded to that is controversial. The police law enforcement are not always trusted, but in Oakland and in many other cities, police are involved in midnight basketball, either through police activities, league or other programs.
What are your views on that? If this was an ideal world, would police be involved? Some people say, oh, this is just a chance for them to, you know, get closer to the kids and then they're gonna break that trust. I mean, that's a tricky, that's gotta be a tricky relationship to help navigate, and you're doing that as someone who has a foot in both worlds, so to speak.
Kevin: You know, in all police departments there are officers, and I guarantee you this is across the world and I ain't a fan of, you know, I don't throw pompoms in there for many people, but I know, and I've been training throughout the state, outside the country, throughout our country law enforcement entities, and there are always officers who, who put that flag down, who support the community.
Let voice be heard, give people agency even when they do their job, they'll, you know, give people the respect that they earn and stuff like that and the respect that they have coming and not just bully pulpit them into, you know, the submission of that back car and that jail cell. We are blessed to have those officers and the trust and the working relationship with OPD over many years.
And we've had some officers in the past that were not well suited for that, and we were able to switch them out to officers who were, I think it's a good thing because watch why it allows youth to understand, we have youth that because of midnight basketball, are now working with the police depart. It don't get no better than that.
Homegrown because of relationships built. Now, I was a of different cloth when I was in the game, you know, out, out there acting, doing what I was doing. But I realized that what better people to police. The city of Oakland and people that are homegrown from Oakland and who have that premise, their foot in community, their heart in community, but then their dreams, their head in the sky about, you know, bettering, um, people's ability to move without violence and move without robberies and other things.
And. The officers provide in flatland communities. So I believe it is a good thing, and I'm speaking to the city of Oakland. I have only done midnight basketball in Oakland. Other cities I can't speak on. We have a healthy, established relationship over years. And Drew a hit and miss. Over years of lack of trust.
And who are you? Why are you, who are you, why are you, when we do fairs at our midnight basketball, the sheriff's officers come there, they do my, my sponsor free haircuts and stuff. And I don't think it's any, uh, hanky pany or or no school dougy involved because we get a chance to know some of these people.
And many of the people on that backstage, um, passed with OPD and our law enforcement partners, their hearts are, are in the work.
Andrew: Are these generally kids who are already getting in trouble? Are they kids who might be headed for trouble? Are there kids who might be victims if they were out on the street instead of at the gym? What kind of kids are showing up to the gym to participate? Kevin: Okay, so the kids that are showing up, the last few, uh, seasons we had were high school kids. If high school kids are from Flatland, Oakland, Richmond, other communities that we're working with guarantee, when I read Ask, who in here knows somebody who is killed by gun violence in Oakland or their community. Every hand in the room goes up. Everybody has their hand up. When I get to two or three or four people. So even if these kids are aa, you know, you league kids that play for their high school, they're connected to the same neighborhoods and the same violence through bio family, through chosen family.
So the connective tissues are always there. So right now, the last session we had, Andrew was high school. I think they're like. 15 to like 18. When we do the other communities, we go up from 18 to like 20, you know, 7 28. 'cause out here our new shooting, our new highly exposed loved ones, the median age has changed.
It has changed. A lot of people think it's younger people 'cause it's over reported. But our median age of shooters and people being shot are in the 23 to maybe 28. Year category that is the highest people who are reported on as being shot and being shooters. When you see these people, these beautiful young boys and girls in these rooms, and they looking at somebody that they might not be in agreement with or might even have shared bullets with.
And they get a chance to breathe and do something like this. It's a game changer and no pun intended with the word game, but it's just a beautiful thing to see and to be a part of, and then to do it for as long as many of us has been in there, to be successful with it, and people who were once at odds with each other come together and then surrounded by people with healthier attitudes and we're pulling them apart one at a time talking to 'em. Then finally slow dancing 'em together and settling accounts. If you know, that's a, you know, just a way we'll say it here is just settling accounts or that energy.
Andrew: So there is some breaking down of neighborhood boundaries and gang boundaries, and I suppose over time being together in the gym, maybe even playing on the same team. A lot of those tensions theoretically could dissipate.
Kevin: Yes. And we've had 'em, you know, because of a foul. Oh, you fouled me. And it was too, you know, uh, we'd had to go back in to make sure it wouldn't turn into something. So it's just the energy and then it's a game. You know, I would tell 'em, and speaking, this was a few years back, one of the games end up having a little brawl in, and I said, they brawl on national TV with the, but you don't, ain't nobody shooting.
Kareem or Kobe or Steph Curry after a file. So, you know, we kind of use the tools of what we have and make them normalize that. Guess what? It's okay to have differences. It's okay, but it's not okay to settle them at the business end of a pistol.
Andrew: I'm speaking with Kevin Grant, a violence interrupter and community advocate, and a midnight basketball supporter participant in the city of Oakland.
You've seen so many kids over the years, I'm sure turn their life around or turn in the right direction. You've also, I'm sure, seen some that unfortunately didn't. In general, I think they say most young men age out of violence in their mid twenties, but for a good decade or more, you might be sort of teetering on a line back and forth.
What can you say about when you're watching a young person's path along that balance beam, how do you know when they're safe? Is there a moment when you can sort of breathe for them again and on those journeys. You know, what role potentially does a program like Midnight Basketball Play? How do these young people's paths and journeys weave in and out of danger over a good 10, 15 years?
Kevin: Yeah, so one of the ways I can answer that is the kids will call me and it's interesting, it's funny, I'm going to the, um, waterpark this Saturday. Can I do something for $40? 'cause we try to teach them how to be legal in their hustle. It's real easy to, uh. You know, a lot of the crew is out there doing they thing with the quick snatch and grab.
So we give these kids these resources and these mentors and say, Hey, call me, you know, if you need $50 to go to your senior prom, go to your junior, hit us. You know, we try to be there for them and develop something through events that we're doing when we do parks, events, town nights, events through the city of Oakland's lenses.
So we try to align them up with a network and when these kids, Andrew, you know, what's a blessing when they start calling you? When they need something instead of behaving like they used to. It's not one particular moment, but the consistency of when the kid will call you and say, Kev, I don't want to get in trouble, or I can, you call my probation officer Kev I, and then they get to call me and our other life coaches and our other DVP violence interrupters, they get a chance to call people who they know are there for them.
That's the important thing that they start leaning on their relationships with us versus that relationship that is, you know, not as fruitful.
Andrew: Wow. Well that's gotta be, on the one hand, a great feeling, but that's a lot of weight to carry, knowing that if I somehow don't hear my phone, this kid might go the other way.
Kevin: And it is, people say that and we've been carrying away for a while. It's heavy. I, I'm gonna be honest, I cry a lot. I don't mind crying. 'cause crying was not a thing we were supposed to do as boys growing up. But, um, we cry a lot. We pray a lot. You know, we try hard and we try to say our shoulders are strong enough to handle it, but we do, you know, sometimes wish we could tap into some auxiliary help to save some of these babies from lives of institutions and high exposure to violence.
Andrew: I am sure there are some people who hear about a program like this and say, these are people out there with guns and dangerous streets. How can basketball make much of a difference? How do you respond to them? What do you think people need to understand about the violence that they may only hear about on the evening news and how something like a basketball program could make a difference. What is it that they might not understand?
Kevin: Thank you, Andrew. And I've been blessed to be asked that question throughout different states in our country and outside, and I have the same answer. I can gather a room full of kids, young boys who might be active in that 'cause opportunities are kneel.
This question I will ask. Who, if you could raise your hand to make all of this violence stop. Now, I want you to, like Prince said, dig, if you will, a picture, imagine a room. I've asked this question for 30 years. I can't tell you how many young men, women, and adults, I've asked this question that are involved, and I'll ask this question if this violence could end.
And all you had to do was put your hand up before I finished the sentence. I want your listeners to imagine everybody with both of their hands up in the air. They won't even let me finish the sentence. Some kids will lean back on their haunches and throw their feet in the air. It was a show, I forget the name of it, but the guy said, I'm miserable because I'm fat. I eat because I'm miserable. It was just that cyclical thing. So with retaliation, with low solving of crimes, with all of the things that's, to me, poverty, you know, and I'm not excusing it to make listeners think that it is okay. It's not okay. But I think if they knew that the people want what they want, don't sit back, you know, and judge without really the whole story.
Andrew: Has anything about midnight basketball's impact on young people surprised you? Has your perception of the value of midnight basketball changed as you've seen it evolve over the years? Uh, any thoughts that you see it differently than you? Did when you walked in the gym 30 years ago?
Kevin: Yes. The relationship, I'm gonna tell you the value of the relationship with officers.
Like I said, we have kids that have raised their hand in a room full of kids. You're talking about leadership. After a few groups, they feel empowered and say, I wanna be a police. That are now police officers. I wanna be a sheriff that are now sheriffs. 'cause we would do, uh, job fairs. So people really getting careers from this and being brave in a space, like we said earlier, in a space where it's not popular to raise your hand and say, I want to be law enforcement.
But not only did these kids raise their hands in those space and made that decision, but also followed up with the availability in those spaces. You know, we have this saying, I make all the kids say this. If I change a network, I could change a net worth. And so I believe in all networks to help these loved ones change their network so they can change their net worth.
And that is both financially and personally.
HOST: That was correspondent Andrew Stelzer, speaking with Kevin Grant. Workshop coordinator for the Midnight Basketball Program in Oakland, California. We'll link to information about midnight basketball, as well as Kevin and his work on our website, peace docs radio.com.
In part one, we also featured Marc Wilmot and Patrice Fox with Peace Players, a global peace education initiative that brings together youth from communities divided by conflict and inequality. To learn more about this program, go to peace talks radio.com and look for season 24, episode three. You can also hear the programs in our series dating back to 2003, see photos of our guests, read and share transcripts.
It's also where you can sign up for our podcast, and importantly, where you can make a donation to keep this program going into the future. Support comes from listeners like you, as well as the Albuquerque Community Foundation Ties Fund and KUNM at the University of New Mexico. Nola Daves Moses is our executive director, Ali Adelman, composed and performs our theme music for correspondent Andrew Stelzer, co-founders Suzanne Kryder and Paul Ingles.
I'm Jessica Ticktin. Thanks so much for listening to and for supporting Peace Talks Radio.
